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Abortion
Should be illegal, except in extreme cases 25%  25%  [ 14 ]
Should be legal during the first trimester only 24%  24%  [ 13 ]
Should be legal beyond the first trimester 47%  47%  [ 26 ]
Undecided 4%  4%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 55

ryan93
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20 Mar 2011, 5:20 pm

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While a frog's leg will twitch when electricity is applied to it, something has to generate the electricity or in this case send the electrical impulse to get the limbs to move. The movements I saw were too smooth to be called twitching.


Weak muscles in a fluid filled sack would move pretty smoothly. I reckon it was a reflex.


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Inuyasha
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20 Mar 2011, 5:30 pm

ryan93 wrote:
Quote:
While a frog's leg will twitch when electricity is applied to it, something has to generate the electricity or in this case send the electrical impulse to get the limbs to move. The movements I saw were too smooth to be called twitching.


Weak muscles in a fluid filled sack would move pretty smoothly. I reckon it was a reflex.


Reflex to what?

Neural transmitters do not generate their own signals, they transmit from the brain. The only way you get a reflexive action is if there is a stimuli that causes the body to react to it.

As for a baby's brain size, you do realize that the baby's head has to make it through the birth canal.



JetLag
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20 Mar 2011, 5:41 pm

To abort life that is human in nature is to deprive that which is human in nature of life. Therefore, abortion is the taking of life that is human by nature.


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Oodain
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20 Mar 2011, 5:41 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Quote:
While a frog's leg will twitch when electricity is applied to it, something has to generate the electricity or in this case send the electrical impulse to get the limbs to move. The movements I saw were too smooth to be called twitching.


Weak muscles in a fluid filled sack would move pretty smoothly. I reckon it was a reflex.


Reflex to what?

Neural transmitters do not generate their own signals, they transmit from the brain. The only way you get a reflexive action is if there is a stimuli that causes the body to react to it.

As for a baby's brain size, you do realize that the baby's head has to make it through the birth canal.


a cockroach doesnt need the brain to have a reflex, the neurons can effectively bypass the major brain for increased reaction time.

every single cell in the human body produces an electrical charge to my understanding, so in something as undeveloped as a zef who knows how many "signals" are sent by pure chance.

as stated before the first evidence of any "coherent" pattern recognizable in any human after birth is around 20 weeks and even that is simply a deep sleep state, effectively at this point they are still more unconscious than consciouss.


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20 Mar 2011, 5:45 pm

Oodain wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Quote:
While a frog's leg will twitch when electricity is applied to it, something has to generate the electricity or in this case send the electrical impulse to get the limbs to move. The movements I saw were too smooth to be called twitching.


Weak muscles in a fluid filled sack would move pretty smoothly. I reckon it was a reflex.


Reflex to what?

Neural transmitters do not generate their own signals, they transmit from the brain. The only way you get a reflexive action is if there is a stimuli that causes the body to react to it.

As for a baby's brain size, you do realize that the baby's head has to make it through the birth canal.


a cockroach doesnt need the brain to have a reflex, the neurons can effectively bypass the major brain for increased reaction time.

every single cell in the human body produces an electrical charge to my understanding, so in something as undeveloped as a zef who knows how many "signals" are sent by pure chance.


Doesn't work that way, the signals originate in the brain, or feedback from touch, sight, taste, smell, & hearing. Supposedly if pro-abortionists are to be believed the child can't feel pain, well if that is true the brain definately caused the hand to move.

Furthermore, human women do not give birth to cockroaches.



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20 Mar 2011, 5:52 pm

Inuyasha, reflex arcs are spinal. By definition, there is no brain activity in a reflex arc. I have clearly demonstrated this before, complete with illustrations.

In additon, there are spontaneous fetal movements to increase muscle tone and help neuromuscular coordination to develop. Again, no will needed.



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20 Mar 2011, 6:12 pm

LKL wrote:
Inuyasha, reflex arcs are spinal. By definition, there is no brain activity in a reflex arc. I have clearly demonstrated this before, complete with illustrations.

In additon, there are spontaneous fetal movements to increase muscle tone and help neuromuscular coordination to develop. Again, no will needed.


The spinal cord is the second-half of the arc, however what triggers the arc has to start with the nerve endings that would feel the stimuli. If the child doesn't have the ability to feel anything, the nerve signal to cause the reflexive action is not present. So either the child feels things and in which case you could argue it is a reflex response, or it is entirely from the brain.

Furthermore, doesn't the brain start developing around the same time as the spinal cord?



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20 Mar 2011, 6:26 pm

Oodain wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Movement doesn't imply consciousness, or even neurological sophistication. Neuroembryologists have to go by the benchmark of "it's anatomy doesn't look human, it's brainwaves certainly don't, so it's not conscious". It's the only way to approach the problem of other minds.


However there is nothing in the womb for the infant to study, so we're expecting the child to interact with a nonexistant object.


I'm not expecting anything more than a developed brain, or a semblance of a human thought. A fetus in the first trimester shows none of these, the thing is a vegetable.

"But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester. By this time, preterm infants can survive outside the womb under proper medical care."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ness-arise


How complex would your thoughts be if you were essentially in a sensory deprivation chamber all your life?


the one doesnt equal the other, true that a person with no sensory input would develop in ways i dont even want to guess at.

are you telling me you expect complex behavior at every point of development??

Image
I can't tell whether the neo-cortex develops proportionally with the rest of the brain or if it is the last to develop from those pics. Can you fill me in on that? If the neo-cortex does lag behind, then it is a question of whether the fetus/embryo has the capacity to imagine since thinking would either be nonexistent or would be formed under theta waves which is basically your brain activity when you are in deep meditation.



Oodain
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20 Mar 2011, 6:50 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Oodain wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
Movement doesn't imply consciousness, or even neurological sophistication. Neuroembryologists have to go by the benchmark of "it's anatomy doesn't look human, it's brainwaves certainly don't, so it's not conscious". It's the only way to approach the problem of other minds.


However there is nothing in the womb for the infant to study, so we're expecting the child to interact with a nonexistant object.


I'm not expecting anything more than a developed brain, or a semblance of a human thought. A fetus in the first trimester shows none of these, the thing is a vegetable.

"But when does the magical journey of consciousness begin? Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation. Roughly two months later synchrony of the electroencephalographic (EEG) rhythm across both cortical hemispheres signals the onset of global neuronal integration. Thus, many of the circuit elements necessary for consciousness are in place by the third trimester. By this time, preterm infants can survive outside the womb under proper medical care."

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... ness-arise


How complex would your thoughts be if you were essentially in a sensory deprivation chamber all your life?


the one doesnt equal the other, true that a person with no sensory input would develop in ways i dont even want to guess at.

are you telling me you expect complex behavior at every point of development??

Image
I can't tell whether the neo-cortex develops proportionally with the rest of the brain or if it is the last to develop from those pics. Can you fill me in on that? If the neo-cortex does lag behind, then it is a question of whether the fetus/embryo has the capacity to imagine since thinking would either be nonexistent or would be formed under theta waves which is basically your brain activity when you are in deep meditation.


i am by no means a neurologist but it has been a special interest of mine.

the first real signs of any neo cortex activity (in its MOST basic form) would be the first truly synchronous activity the brain does as far as i remember it is somewhere in weeks 24-28, but the neo cortex actually develops even after birth(why many pediatricians call the first three months "the fourth trimester")

diagram of brain development stages

however there are signs of some brain activity considered "full grown" as early as 20 weeks
this is the sleep state described here now this is more alike to the deep stage N3 or N4 sleep.
they didnt show the readings so i have to guess there.
sleep cycles


wheter they have the power to imagine or not is a very hard thing to answer as i dont know anything about imagination and the way it works in the brain.


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Tensu
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20 Mar 2011, 7:54 pm

ryan93 wrote:
It hasn't got a terribly good one though, has it?. A rat probably has more sophisticated mental processes than an early stage fetus, certainly more than a blastocyte. Sentience is what gives an organism rights, and it's the reason I don't eat monkeys or people, but do eat chickens and yogurt.


Two questions:

1. What makes you think chickens aren't sentient?

2. would you eat a human if they where in a coma? if they feel asleep?

also, the requirements you posted seemed to be more about what a planet needs to support life. the seven requirements are how we judge if a thing is or is not alive. and what living thing never grows?



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20 Mar 2011, 7:57 pm

Tensu wrote:
ryan93 wrote:
It hasn't got a terribly good one though, has it?. A rat probably has more sophisticated mental processes than an early stage fetus, certainly more than a blastocyte. Sentience is what gives an organism rights, and it's the reason I don't eat monkeys or people, but do eat chickens and yogurt.


Two questions:

1. What makes you think chickens aren't sentient?

2. would you eat a human if they where in a coma? if they feel asleep?

also, the requirements you posted seemed to be more about what a planet needs to support life. the seven requirements are how we judge if a thing is or is not alive. and what living thing never grows?


bacteria and other one celled critters do not grow. They split.

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LKL
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20 Mar 2011, 8:02 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
LKL wrote:
Inuyasha, reflex arcs are spinal. By definition, there is no brain activity in a reflex arc. I have clearly demonstrated this before, complete with illustrations.

In additon, there are spontaneous fetal movements to increase muscle tone and help neuromuscular coordination to develop. Again, no will needed.


The spinal cord is the second-half of the arc, however what triggers the arc has to start with the nerve endings that would feel the stimuli. If the child doesn't have the ability to feel anything, the nerve signal to cause the reflexive action is not present. So either the child feels things and in which case you could argue it is a reflex response, or it is entirely from the brain.

Furthermore, doesn't the brain start developing around the same time as the spinal cord?

FFS.
I have said this all before, but in case there is anyone new reading, I'll say it again:
the brain is irrelevant to reflexes.
One cannot 'feel' squat without a brain to process the signal. Your taste buds might be workign just fine, but if the nerve impulses between your tongue and your brain don't connect, then you won't taste anything. Likewise, your touch and proprioception nerve endings might be functioning, and might hook up to your spinal cord for reflex action, but if your brain isn't funcitoning you won't 'feel' squat. You can poke a needle in the toe of a paraplegic person and it won't bother them at all (unless they have an issue with seeing blood), because the signal doesn't reach the brain. Likewise, an anencephalic zef twitches and moves, despite not having a brain at all.



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20 Mar 2011, 8:07 pm

Tensu wrote:
2. would you eat a human if they where in a coma? if they feel asleep?


Yummy!



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20 Mar 2011, 9:25 pm

pandabear wrote:
Tensu wrote:
2. would you eat a human if they where in a coma? if they feel asleep?


Yummy!


I hear human tastes like ham and I'm not that big on ham.


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20 Mar 2011, 9:27 pm

skafather84 wrote:
pandabear wrote:
Tensu wrote:
2. would you eat a human if they where in a coma? if they feel asleep?


Yummy!


I hear human tastes like ham and I'm not that big on ham.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-l ... e-cannibal

Further reading.


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22 Mar 2011, 10:45 am

I am not a fan of late-term abortion, however you do get the rare occasion that the fetus is a threat to the woman's life, so yes, I agree with abortion after the first trimester, It hardly ever happens.

Don't fetuses in the later stage get taken out via c-section if it's a threat to the woman's life?


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