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A conservative and liberal difference

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DW_a_mom
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25 Apr 2011, 8:53 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
psychohist wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Quote:
No, wanting to stop illegal immigration is about wanting to preserve the sovereignty of this country, a country that refuses to defend its own borders soon ceases to be a country.

Given that we have had a steady flow of immigration, not always legally defined, since before we even were a nation, I can't buy that argument. It is a desire to take a river that has always flowed and stick a dam on it. That IS change. The fact that people got on the riverboat and got upset when they actually got swept down river doesn't make it the river boats fault. It did what it has always done. It is the upset passengers that misunderstood the journey, and want to cry foul that they can't re-land at the same spot they left from. So they try to dam the river.

You must have missed the word "illegal" in Inuyasha's post. He's not talking about damming the river, just putting up some dikes on the riverbanks to avoid dangerous floods.

you might have trouble reading as well
maybe people disagree with your view because they understand it.


Well this is a case where you are quite simply full of it. I actually have an Aunt whose parents are from Mexico and as far as I know they entered the US legally, my Aunt was born a US citizen. You sir are implying that I have some sort of racial hatred towards members of my own family. Quite frankly you are way out of line, and I would like an apology.


OK, maybe I can be more clear.

In a way, the distinction between legal and illegal is, by itself, a dam in the river. Given that quotas and what not - the wall that forces many who would have been happy to come legally into taking the illegal path - are part of an attempt to slow the river, I am not that excited about exalting legal immigration and condeming illegal. They would all LIKE to be legal, let's be honest, but not everyone gets that opportunity.

When the drive to come illegally is this strong, it would make sense to me to re-examine the process, ie how one gets to be legal. To look more strongly at the driving forces and find a solution. As with so many things, trying to fight the current simply creates unintended problems, and that mess is what we have today in the volume of illegal immigration.

Most of our ancestors got here before we had a law on the concept at all. No quotas, no rules.


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AceOfSpades
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25 Apr 2011, 8:56 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I actually prefer Kraich.
And if you want to think of me as a "political stereotype, then go ahead, I can't stop you. But I still assert that plenty of people are swayed to vote against their own interests for emotional reasons.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Sorry about the name thing, I see your username and want to pronounce it craig-chauer and my mind just sort of alters how I see the spelling.

Anyway, I wasn't so much talking about how I perceive you as how other people are going to react, I hate being stereotyped myself so I put a lot of effort into not acting stereotypical. I'd completely agree about people getting swept up in emotion over reason, but I would not attribute that solely or even mostly to conservative causes. My gun related voting for example had nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with putting the Democrats so far off of that idea that I could safely vote for them when I feel they have the better candidate; I felt confident enough in this to vote Obama over McCain in 2008. See, perfectly rational. Like I mentioned in another thread, all I really want is the benefit of the doubt about coming to an opinion honestly, I get very annoyed by this undercurrent of people having had to have been "tricked" to have positions that some people disagree with.


I apologize for misunderstanding your post. The political discussions here in this forum are always enjoyable, but like any other sport (I'm guessing - I suck at sports), sometimes my blood is up, and my perceptions aren't always correct.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I'm glad you're able to admit to that and you've definitely gained more of my respect. I get overzealous at times and that can definitely skew my perception as well as bias.



Kraichgauer
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25 Apr 2011, 10:55 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I actually prefer Kraich.
And if you want to think of me as a "political stereotype, then go ahead, I can't stop you. But I still assert that plenty of people are swayed to vote against their own interests for emotional reasons.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Sorry about the name thing, I see your username and want to pronounce it craig-chauer and my mind just sort of alters how I see the spelling.

Anyway, I wasn't so much talking about how I perceive you as how other people are going to react, I hate being stereotyped myself so I put a lot of effort into not acting stereotypical. I'd completely agree about people getting swept up in emotion over reason, but I would not attribute that solely or even mostly to conservative causes. My gun related voting for example had nothing to do with emotion and everything to do with putting the Democrats so far off of that idea that I could safely vote for them when I feel they have the better candidate; I felt confident enough in this to vote Obama over McCain in 2008. See, perfectly rational. Like I mentioned in another thread, all I really want is the benefit of the doubt about coming to an opinion honestly, I get very annoyed by this undercurrent of people having had to have been "tricked" to have positions that some people disagree with.


I apologize for misunderstanding your post. The political discussions here in this forum are always enjoyable, but like any other sport (I'm guessing - I suck at sports), sometimes my blood is up, and my perceptions aren't always correct.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I'm glad you're able to admit to that and you've definitely gained more of my respect. I get overzealous at times and that can definitely skew my perception as well as bias.


8)

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Inuyasha
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25 Apr 2011, 10:58 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
psychohist wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
Quote:
No, wanting to stop illegal immigration is about wanting to preserve the sovereignty of this country, a country that refuses to defend its own borders soon ceases to be a country.

Given that we have had a steady flow of immigration, not always legally defined, since before we even were a nation, I can't buy that argument. It is a desire to take a river that has always flowed and stick a dam on it. That IS change. The fact that people got on the riverboat and got upset when they actually got swept down river doesn't make it the river boats fault. It did what it has always done. It is the upset passengers that misunderstood the journey, and want to cry foul that they can't re-land at the same spot they left from. So they try to dam the river.

You must have missed the word "illegal" in Inuyasha's post. He's not talking about damming the river, just putting up some dikes on the riverbanks to avoid dangerous floods.

you might have trouble reading as well
maybe people disagree with your view because they understand it.


Well this is a case where you are quite simply full of it. I actually have an Aunt whose parents are from Mexico and as far as I know they entered the US legally, my Aunt was born a US citizen. You sir are implying that I have some sort of racial hatred towards members of my own family. Quite frankly you are way out of line, and I would like an apology.


OK, maybe I can be more clear.

In a way, the distinction between legal and illegal is, by itself, a dam in the river. Given that quotas and what not - the wall that forces many who would have been happy to come legally into taking the illegal path - are part of an attempt to slow the river, I am not that excited about exalting legal immigration and condeming illegal. They would all LIKE to be legal, let's be honest, but not everyone gets that opportunity.

When the drive to come illegally is this strong, it would make sense to me to re-examine the process, ie how one gets to be legal. To look more strongly at the driving forces and find a solution. As with so many things, trying to fight the current simply creates unintended problems, and that mess is what we have today in the volume of illegal immigration.

Most of our ancestors got here before we had a law on the concept at all. No quotas, no rules.


Right now the Federal Government has no credibility when it comes to immigration reform, everyone knows it would equal amnesty with no solutions.



mcg
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26 Apr 2011, 12:02 am

We need no immigration restrictions above plain old private property rights. If I want to sell my property to a Mexican, then why should the federal government be able to tell me otherwise?



psychohist
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26 Apr 2011, 12:26 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
They would all LIKE to be legal

I am not convinced. The $5 an hour farm workers, sure, they'd like to be legal, and we really need a mechanism to allow them to work in the U.S. legally without making it so expensive it puts the farms out of business. But the $17 an hour nannies? I think a lot of them are just as happy avoiding 15% social security and nanny taxes; at $20 an hour pretax, some of them would lose their jobs.

And the idea that we should just live with a system where cheaters get advantages over the would be immigrants who play by the rules, and where we accept that sometimes a shipment of illegals ends up dying in a locked tractor trailer - that's just broken.

Quote:
Most of our ancestors got here before we had a law on the concept at all. No quotas, no rules.

This may be true for your ancestors, but most of mine - and all of my wife's - immigrated under quotas during the 20th century, then went through a prolonged naturalization process, learned English, passed strict citizenship tests, etc.

But you know what? Eliminate income taxes for legal aliens and for citizens, and I'll have no objections to the illegal immigrants who don't pay tax.



DW_a_mom
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26 Apr 2011, 12:48 am

psychohist wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
They would all LIKE to be legal

I am not convinced. The $5 an hour farm workers, sure, they'd like to be legal, and we really need a mechanism to allow them to work in the U.S. legally without making it so expensive it puts the farms out of business. But the $17 an hour nannies? I think a lot of them are just as happy avoiding 15% social security and nanny taxes; at $20 an hour pretax, some of them would lose their jobs.
x.


In my experience, trying to earn without paying tax was a sport that many citizens were eager to play, too. Hiring a nanny above the table was interesting, and everyone I interviewed was legal.

I saw a lot of people take advantage of the illegals. They weren't paying them 17. Someone who is illegal cannot drive, and that knocks the nanny pay potential down a lot.


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psychohist
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26 Apr 2011, 1:35 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
I saw a lot of people take advantage of the illegals. They weren't paying them 17. Someone who is illegal cannot drive, and that knocks the nanny pay potential down a lot.

$17 was the going rate for illegal nannies that people I knew saw and paid. Legal nannies were very difficult to find due to the tax free competition from the illegals. The situation may be different in Northern California, which is much farther from the border.

Illegal aliens have no problems driving in Massachusetts. If you don't get stopped, your driver's license doesn't get checked, though our current administration would probably have no problem giving them to illegals anyway. I doubt it's much different in southern California.



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26 Apr 2011, 1:44 am

There are plenty of legal citizens who work under the table.

The government turns a blind eye on many illegal immigrants effectively allowing certain industries like slaughter houses to employ them en masse, which these industries prefer since these workers have no rights. The government will come in and make token arrests and deportations just for face value. They are in partnership with this racket and innocent people are being used and discarded.
They do the dangerous under-payed work and most citizens are programmed to look at them disdainfully from their positions of comparatively disgusting levels of of wealth and privilege.



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26 Apr 2011, 8:36 am

Subotai wrote:
There are plenty of legal citizens who work under the table.

The government turns a blind eye on many illegal immigrants effectively allowing certain industries like slaughter houses to employ them en masse, which these industries prefer since these workers have no rights. The government will come in and make token arrests and deportations just for face value. They are in partnership with this racket and innocent people are being used and discarded.
They do the dangerous under-payed work and most citizens are programmed to look at them disdainfully from their positions of comparatively disgusting levels of of wealth and privilege.


Why do you think I am for employers of illegals getting hit with more than just fines...



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26 Apr 2011, 8:56 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Subotai wrote:
There are plenty of legal citizens who work under the table.

The government turns a blind eye on many illegal immigrants effectively allowing certain industries like slaughter houses to employ them en masse, which these industries prefer since these workers have no rights. The government will come in and make token arrests and deportations just for face value. They are in partnership with this racket and innocent people are being used and discarded.
They do the dangerous under-payed work and most citizens are programmed to look at them disdainfully from their positions of comparatively disgusting levels of of wealth and privilege.


Why do you think I am for employers of illegals getting hit with more than just fines...


I'd say the fines are really just for face value as well. Many of the regulators were formerly involved in the industries they now regulate!



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26 Apr 2011, 9:43 am

psychohist wrote:
DW_a_mom wrote:
I saw a lot of people take advantage of the illegals. They weren't paying them 17. Someone who is illegal cannot drive, and that knocks the nanny pay potential down a lot.

$17 was the going rate for illegal nannies that people I knew saw and paid. Legal nannies were very difficult to find due to the tax free competition from the illegals. The situation may be different in Northern California, which is much farther from the border.

Illegal aliens have no problems driving in Massachusetts. If you don't get stopped, your driver's license doesn't get checked, though our current administration would probably have no problem giving them to illegals anyway. I doubt it's much different in southern California.


Legal nannies are hard to find because nannies are treated in the adult world like 3rd class citizens. I have two friends who choose it for a career but left when they got tired of the snotty attitudes of people they met socially. Both were top notch, educated, and just happened to adore kids. But everyone assumes you must have been unable to find "better" work.

Illegals fill jobs the labor pool is short on. They come because the work demand exists. The work demand exists because some jobs the rest of us don't value enough.


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Subotai
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26 Apr 2011, 9:49 am

Illegals probably do more good than harm economically. Being scapegoats is just another strategic use for them by the powers that be.



DW_a_mom
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26 Apr 2011, 1:09 pm

Subotai wrote:
Illegals probably do more good than harm economically.


There are economic studies that show exactly that: they put more in than they take out.


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psychohist
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26 Apr 2011, 1:11 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:
Legal nannies are hard to find because nannies are treated in the adult world like 3rd class citizens. I have two friends who choose it for a career but left when they got tired of the snotty attitudes of people they met socially. Both were top notch, educated, and just happened to adore kids. But everyone assumes you must have been unable to find "better" work.

Again, possibly true where you live, but not generalizable to the entire U.S. There are plenty of legal nannies here in Massachusetts; we live far enough away from the Mexican border that tax free competition from illegals is not an issue in that particular market.

Quote:
Illegals fill jobs the labor pool is short on. They come because the work demand exists. The work demand exists because some jobs the rest of us don't value enough.

The work demand exists because tax and welfare rules make legal labor too expensive.



DW_a_mom
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26 Apr 2011, 4:53 pm

psychohist wrote:
Quote:
Illegals fill jobs the labor pool is short on. They come because the work demand exists. The work demand exists because some jobs the rest of us don't value enough.

The work demand exists because tax and welfare rules make legal labor too expensive.


On that, we'll have to agree to disagree ;)

But I do understand where you are coming from ... the factor is there. Just how much it pulls v. the others ... I feel the others are stronger.


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