Does a Fetus and a Spiral Galaxy Have a Similar Design?

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Sure, but it is not necessary that a God interfered. What I was pointing out is that something as complex as a logarithmic spiral often comes from simple, identifiable causes, Complexity shouldn't immediately be thought of as requiring a cosmic "Watchmaker", but as something that can arise naturally in our universe. Complexity, or symmetries, are no more an indicator of divine intervention than simplicity and irregularity. They arise just as easily, in the right circumstances.

I wasn't arguing that an intelligent designer couldn't have created the Universe (personally, I see no evidence he did), I was saying that Log Spirals are simply objects that can arise through normal processes. No God needed.

I can accept that, and I thank you!

Sorry for being ambiguous in the original post.

God speaks to us in twisted ways sometimes. It is evident from commercials on TV.

It's amazing a "simple" mechanism has led us to where we are.

None of us can change the essence of our existence with words. It's was the same before words were invented. Words were the beginning of guidelines, that eventually led some of us to the word God.

Unfortunately for some the word "God" has become a four letter word. It is particularly sad, I think, because the essence is no different know than before the word came to be.

We can get mad at our essence and hate it; if we do that, our essence may be flavored with anger, hatred, and bitterness. We can appreciate our essence and share it with others, and if we are fortunate our essence may be flavored with kindness, love, and contentment.

It is so much more complicated that that for most, but the simpler we can make it the better off we are; in the long run. If one can do that, in today's world, they have accomplished a goal unlike no other in life.

Is man the only animal capable of getting mad and hating it's essence?

I wonder about that when I watch animals, and I've come to the conclusion; I think the answer is obviously, yes.

... and I for reading into it.


My cat only growls while dealing with her own tail, but I do think you might still be right!

I thought twice before giving that answer because of two examples I could think of.

#1 Sheep commit suicide when their nasal passages get irritated by fleas. They bang their head on trees, sometimes resulting in death.

#2 Flipper committed suicide while enclosed in a small Aquarium; according to his trainer he could no longer stand the monotony of being in a small tank and no longer being able to use sonar because of the constraints of the tank.

In the first case the sheep just wanted to get rid of the torture it was feeling; situational in nature.

In the second case, we can't put ourselves in the mind of a Dolphin, but the trainer said that before the Dolphin made the dive and drowned, it gave a soulful look in the trainers eyes as if to say goodbye. I would still put that in the situational category; the ending of suffering not anger at essence.

The same argument can be made for humans that are angry at their essence; those that are fortunate in life are more likely to want to live forever.

I've experienced some suffering in the last few years, but have a hard time being angry at my essence, but I've been guilty of it before. There were so many years I wanted to live forever; I just understand, better now, from a personal perspective, that death brings an ending to suffering that some endure.

That is the advantage that animals have over humans, but on the other hand a human can look to future with hope and contentment thinking he knows where he will be and knowing there will be food the next day.

I think our domesticated animals are more contented because of not experiencing the discomfort of hunger, but when we leave them, they have no way of knowing whether we will ever be back. Their discomfort is more evident the longer we are away.

Yes, and even humans sometimes just "go off to die" somewhere because of no longer having the will, energy, drive or heath to continue on.


Same here as to the pain, and the relief of death is simple fact whether or not we covet its relief ...

... and yet I would still not complain if I somehow ended up being "the last one out".

Apparently, you value the essence of your life and are very independent! Last one out doesn't sound too good to me, but, here I go taking a statement literally, as I often do.

It is not so much that I value "the essence of my life", but that I simply believe it has value ... and oops, there went all of my humility for at least the remainder of this particular day! And as to "last one out" ...

That simple thought began several years ago while I was "leader" within a small fellowship of people and saw so many who were barely able to even hold their own half of the grasp as we all walked along together ... and with or without ever even really thinking about that kind of thing specifically, do we not all yet cry over the all-alone dilemma of a suffering orphan?

I think support into older age, is a benefit of religion, that many young people can't possibly fully understand. If you don't have it, it is much easier to be left standing alone, with or without others; and the same can apply to younger people as well.

It is a good way of looking at being the last one left standing; the last one left to help someone else stand, regardless of degree of kinship. Perhaps, evidence of my own upbringing in a me culture, instead of a we culture.

**steps up onto empty whiskey crate**

**steps back down** (no collection taken)

Yes, the Golden rule; hmm, Who knows; might be related to the Golden ratio.

And, of course, church is not the only place to find the fellowhip that comes from it.