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DeepHour
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21 Sep 2020, 12:29 am

One thing that is interesting (to me at any rate) is the way that the concepts of 'Left Wing' and Right Wing' have changed in recent decades. This seems to have begun with the collapse of Communism in the 1989-91 period, and resulted in people abandoning or redefining their ideological positions.

Many Left Wingers for instance, who had previously supported or been sympathetic to hardline Socialism seemed very opportunistically to disown it, at least as far as the economic aspect went. When the old-style Communists in the Soviet Union rebelled against the reforms of Gorbachev and Yeltsin in the early 1990s and tried to stage a coup d'etat, the left-leaning commentators in media like The Guardian, Channel 4 and the BBC universally referred to them as 'The Right', despite the fact that these were the people who had backed the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 (the so-called 'Tankies') in the name of upholding the purity of the Revolution. I found this unbelievable at the time - commentators who a few years earlier had generally been prepared to fall over themselves to make excuses for the excesses of the Hard Left, or to look the other way when required, were now saying in effect 'These people were never anything to do with us. They're The Right.' LOL. It's one reason among many why I find it hard to take the 'Progressive' media seriously.

But you've had a parallel development on the Right. In the 1990s the Liberal Left, having abandoned traditional Socialism, started to concentrate on social and cultural themes, putting the emphasis on the likes of so-called 'political correctness' and identity politics. I think this has very much caught out the traditional Social Conservatives, who were slow to react or didn't know how to react at all, and they've been largely replaced on the modern Right by 'Libertarian' Conservatives, who are either not very interested in social and cultural matters, or are even on board with PC, perhaps because traditional Conservative views aren't 'cool' or radical enough for them.

In any case, what we now have, it seems to me, is a sort of consensus in mainstream politics among people of nominally 'Right' and 'Left' positions, which supports Free Market economic policies on the one hand, and 'Liberal' social policies on the other hand (I put the word in inverted commas, as many of these policies don't seem very liberal at all to me). There doesn't seem to be much room for views which diverge a great deal from these positions, despite all the trite talk of 'diversity'. Is this a healthy state of affairs in supposedly 'democratic' societies? I don't think so!


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vermontsavant
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21 Sep 2020, 8:10 am

DeepHour wrote:
One thing that is interesting (to me at any rate) is the way that the concepts of 'Left Wing' and Right Wing' have changed in recent decades. This seems to have begun with the collapse of Communism in the 1989-91 period, and resulted in people abandoning or redefining their ideological positions.

Many Left Wingers for instance, who had previously supported or been sympathetic to hardline Socialism seemed very opportunistically to disown it, at least as far as the economic aspect went. When the old-style Communists in the Soviet Union rebelled against the reforms of Gorbachev and Yeltsin in the early 1990s and tried to stage a coup d'etat, the left-leaning commentators in media like The Guardian, Channel 4 and the BBC universally referred to them as 'The Right', despite the fact that these were the people who had backed the invasion of Czechoslovakia in 1968 (the so-called 'Tankies') in the name of upholding the purity of the Revolution. I found this unbelievable at the time - commentators who a few years earlier had generally been prepared to fall over themselves to make excuses for the excesses of the Hard Left, or to look the other way when required, were now saying in effect 'These people were never anything to do with us. They're The Right.' LOL. It's one reason among many why I find it hard to take the 'Progressive' media seriously.

But you've had a parallel development on the Right. In the 1990s the Liberal Left, having abandoned traditional Socialism, started to concentrate on social and cultural themes, putting the emphasis on the likes of so-called 'political correctness' and identity politics. I think this has very much caught out the traditional Social Conservatives, who were slow to react or didn't know how to react at all, and they've been largely replaced on the modern Right by 'Libertarian' Conservatives, who are either not very interested in social and cultural matters, or are even on board with PC, perhaps because traditional Conservative views aren't 'cool' or radical enough for them.

In any case, what we now have, it seems to me, is a sort of consensus in mainstream politics among people of nominally 'Right' and 'Left' positions, which supports Free Market economic policies on the one hand, and 'Liberal' social policies on the other hand (I put the word in inverted commas, as many of these policies don't seem very liberal at all to me). There doesn't seem to be much room for views which diverge a great deal from these positions, despite all the trite talk of 'diversity'. Is this a healthy state of affairs in supposedly 'democratic' societies? I don't think so!
The big shift in political identity that happened in the early 90's.When I was a kid all the white collar's were republican and the blue collar's were democrat but all social conservative's.Like my grandparents,staunch democrats but conservative on abortion and homosexuality.And the white collars's were republican with same social views.

The great schism of American politics happened in the early 90's when the WW2 generation retired and the baby boomer's who were hippies in the late 1960's became the Yuppies and the new white collar America.And were liberal both on welfare issues like the old democrats but socially liberal too,coming from there 60's ideals.

Rural blue collar more religious oriented America who used to be socially conservative democrats got alienated by the new liberalism and went republican.

So now blue collar America is republican and the liberal 60's era baby boomer white collar's are the new democrats and that was the great political shift that started with Reagan and was finalized by Bush 41 in the early 90's.


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AspiePrincess611
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21 Sep 2020, 10:57 am

Feyokien wrote:
AspiePrincess611 wrote:
envirozentinel wrote:
Wildfires can strike virtually any area of California, Washington or Oregon it seems to me and people can't pick a place that guarantees they will never be in the path of a wildfire.


Yes, but certain areas are more prone than others. And there's no definitive proof that convinces me this is anything other than a natural cycle that has happened for thousands of years (I majored in geoscience, so I know something about this). People have just been moving into areas that were previously not densely populated. Wildfires have been going on in these areas for thousands of years. Again - too many homo sapiens on planet Earth.


I am about to receive a MoS degree in the Geosciences. Warming temperatures/ increased droughts due to anthropogenic climate change both contribute to increased wildfire frequency. Humans are expanding into new areas though as well.

Quote:
And I seriously doubt any food supply issues will affect developed nations that much. The real problem is too many humans on this planet - most of whom are useless idiots. I'm not a big fan of probably 70-80% of the human race. Only 20-30% I'd say are worth anything. The rest aren't worth a pile of manure.


Hm.....

I guess time will tell... I will reiterate that I too have a MS in geoscience and am skeptical of manmade "climate change". It's a scientific fact that the climate has fluctuated many times throughout the history of the planet. It will continue to do so, to the benefit or detriment of our species. I believe in science. I love science, and am naturally curious. However, what is agreed upon at one moment as scientific fact can be disproven at any time. So I don't feel that "climate change" is by any means proven. It could be debunked in 5 years for all we know. I'm not convinced by anything I've heard or read, and I wrote a term paper on climate fluctuation when I was working on my bachelors! I'm excited to see what will happen myself in the next 50 years. Should be interesting. I'm going to sit back, chill, and watch the show. Maybe humans are influencing the climate, but maybe not. We don't really get natural disasters where I live, but I find this disappointing because they are so fascinating. I'd love to see a tornado or experience a hurricane. I am strangely fascinated by calamity and destruction. Admittedly, I'm a little bit of a psychopath :P For me, it's not so much if climate change exists or not, it's why I should care. And more importantly, why I should incur additional expense and taxes to pay for more "environmentally friendly" energy. If alternative energy could be implemented without the consumer paying more or sacrificing efficiency I would fully support it. But that is not currently the reality. Do I, personally, care if people's houses burn down or flood? No. They chose to live where they do. Asking the government to pay for their repairs is like getting drunk, totaling your car, and asking the government or someone else to pay for it. It's nonsense and should never happen. That's what insurance is for. And if I were an insurance company, rates for these "wildfire victims" and "flood victims" would be through the roof. I also used to work in flood insurance, so I know a good deal about that.


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21 Sep 2020, 11:15 am

KT67 wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
envirozentinel wrote:
I wasn't talking about popular stereotypes of specific races, but the blanket statement that "liberals love gypsies" implying that right wingers hate them - which is racist as it attacks a group of people. I hadn't even joined or visited WP yet when this thread was created.

Saying conservatives hate gypsies is not racist because conservatives are not a race.


Conservatives hate anyone who's not WASP unless they're not WASP themselves in which case they hate everyone who's not their culture, or maybe WASP :lol:

Obviously not all conservatives.

But fear of the outsider is a conservative position.


I am a conservative, WASP, and am not racist, per se. I have met people of all races that I think are good people. I do dislike lazy people, rude/inconsiderate people, people who harm or take advantage of others, and those who make bad choices and expect others to clean up their mess and foot the bill.


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AspiePrincess611
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21 Sep 2020, 1:02 pm

Feyokien wrote:
AspiePrincess611 wrote:
But I still agree with all of it (*except the Gypsy part, that just seems kind of random. It doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't really know any Gypsies so I can't say much about them, but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.* ) People just need to stop being so butthurt all the time and saying everything is "offensive". Free speech is pretty much gone these days. Even if it's "racist" it's still free speech. By the way, there are plenty of "racist" things that stereotype white ethnicities and they rarely complain:
- Notre Dame's "Fighting Irish" use a very racist stereotype of an Irish man. Same thing with Lucky Charms cereal.
- St. Pauli Girl beer uses a "racist" stereotype of a German woman.
- Swiss Miss uses a "racist" stereotype of a Swiss girl.
- All of the pizza companies and Italian food companies using "racist" stereotype caricatures of Italian men on their packaging.
- Bagel companies like Einstein's using caricatures stereotyping Jewish people.
These are just a few examples. Only some groups like to whine all the time about so-called discrimination. The rest of us tend to laugh it off.


Romani ('gypsies' not Romanians) have dealt with and continue to deal with much worse than casual racism. They were treated as equal to Jewish people by the Nazi's....

Romani genocide

I'm a humanist.

I think most people support legal immigration unless they believe in 'ethnostates'. OP is vague. I think illegal immigrants deserve basic human rights and respect.

Climate change is a sound theory. I'm a geoscientist.

I'm not afraid to use 'vulgar' language. Funny because I'm a moderator. I believe in equal opportunity of chance, not outcome...though I think conditions of 'bad' outcomes should be improved some.

I believe in government regulation particularly when it comes to pollution and health.

School bullies rights?

I support castle doctrine.

KT67 wrote:
Oh and I'm anti imperialism. Scotland should be free, Ireland should be entirely free.

Agreed.

I'm okay with immigration, but with certain caveats.
1. I believe all immigrants admitted to a country should be required to learn its predominant language. If you can't, you shouldn't be there. No more posting everything in multiple languages. This includes learning to speak that language well enough so that you are able to be understood by native speakers. I get sick of going into stores, calling call centers, and talking to doctors who you can barely understand because of their heavy accents/limited English skills. My ancestors did it, why can't they?
2. We should not be admitting immigrants who are likely to become reliant on government benefits or are unlikely to contribute much to our economy (some developed countries already do this). We have a big enough problem with poverty as it is among our current citizens. It's sad that these people have to be poor, but hardworking taxpayers should not have to be burdened with this.
3. Illegal immigrants are exactly that - ILLEGAL. They should not be abused or treated cruelly when found, but they should be sent back where they came from. If they want to come to this country, do it through the proper legal means. If you can't comply with #1 and #2 above, you don't deserve to be here.
- Yes, I'm mean and not especially empathetic, but that's how I see it. I have a very Darwinian "survival of the fittest" outlook on life. What applies in nature applies to humans. We are animals, after all.


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envirozentinel
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21 Sep 2020, 1:17 pm

Humans have the choice to be kinder, and the US has enough of the one percent or so super rich billionaires who could better subsidize those seeking a better life but can't work for whatever reason. I wouldn't describe most of the 1% or so multi-billionaires as "hard working taxpayers" - a few self made but many of them are heirs to fortunes left them. They should be taxed more so as to contribute some small measure towards alleviating poverty.

If you needed to move to another country for whatever reason, would you be prepared to learn their predominant language too?


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AspiePrincess611
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21 Sep 2020, 1:41 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
Humans have the choice to be kinder, and the US has enough of the one percent or so super rich billionaires who could better subsidize those seeking a better life but can't work for whatever reason. I wouldn't describe most of the 1% or so multi-billionaires as "hard working taxpayers" - a few self made but many of them are heirs to fortunes left them. They should be taxed more so as to contribute some small measure towards alleviating poverty.

If you needed to move to another country for whatever reason, would you be prepared to learn their predominant language too?

Yes. If I were forced to move to another country (however unlikely that would be), I would be fully willing to learn its language. That would be my responsibility as a citizen of the country.
I disagree with your statement on the wealthy. This should not be a Robin Hood state. If I were wealthy I would give my money to saving animals or curing cancer, not to lazy, stupid humans who sit on their butt and ask for a handout. Charity should be a choice. And as for being kinder, no matter how much you want the world to be all "sunshine, lollipops and rainbows" it's not the reality. Humanity is cruel, selfish, lazy, and opportunistic for the most part. Those who can take advantage of the system or of others normally do. There will always be people hurting and abusing each other, wars, and violence. Trying to force humans to be kind is only going to cause more problems. Admittedly, there are some who are genuinely in need of help and require government assistance, including those with significant disabilities. But there is no telling me that everyone receiving assistance actually fits into that category.
There is no argument that you can give that will make me see things your way (leftist), as there is likely nothing I can say that will make you see things my way. So when it comes down to it, this is all just a waste of time.


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21 Sep 2020, 1:50 pm

I fully support saving animals and seeking efficacious cancer cures. Animals don't have a voice to champion their own cause. It's important to protect them from all forms of abuse.

I never said we should have to help those able bodied individuals who are able to work and have the opportunity to, but those who are unable to - even if they have an invisible disability such as being on the spectrum, as many are unable to fir into the workplace.


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aghogday
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21 Sep 2020, 1:59 pm

AspiePrincess611 wrote:
Feyokien wrote:
AspiePrincess611 wrote:
But I still agree with all of it (*except the Gypsy part, that just seems kind of random. It doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't really know any Gypsies so I can't say much about them, but I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.* ) People just need to stop being so butthurt all the time and saying everything is "offensive". Free speech is pretty much gone these days. Even if it's "racist" it's still free speech. By the way, there are plenty of "racist" things that stereotype white ethnicities and they rarely complain:
- Notre Dame's "Fighting Irish" use a very racist stereotype of an Irish man. Same thing with Lucky Charms cereal.
- St. Pauli Girl beer uses a "racist" stereotype of a German woman.
- Swiss Miss uses a "racist" stereotype of a Swiss girl.
- All of the pizza companies and Italian food companies using "racist" stereotype caricatures of Italian men on their packaging.
- Bagel companies like Einstein's using caricatures stereotyping Jewish people.
These are just a few examples. Only some groups like to whine all the time about so-called discrimination. The rest of us tend to laugh it off.


Romani ('gypsies' not Romanians) have dealt with and continue to deal with much worse than casual racism. They were treated as equal to Jewish people by the Nazi's....

Romani genocide

I'm a humanist.

I think most people support legal immigration unless they believe in 'ethnostates'. OP is vague. I think illegal immigrants deserve basic human rights and respect.

Climate change is a sound theory. I'm a geoscientist.

I'm not afraid to use 'vulgar' language. Funny because I'm a moderator. I believe in equal opportunity of chance, not outcome...though I think conditions of 'bad' outcomes should be improved some.

I believe in government regulation particularly when it comes to pollution and health.

School bullies rights?

I support castle doctrine.

KT67 wrote:
Oh and I'm anti imperialism. Scotland should be free, Ireland should be entirely free.

Agreed.

I'm okay with immigration, but with certain caveats.
1. I believe all immigrants admitted to a country should be required to learn its predominant language. If you can't, you shouldn't be there. No more posting everything in multiple languages. This includes learning to speak that language well enough so that you are able to be understood by native speakers. I get sick of going into stores, calling call centers, and talking to doctors who you can barely understand because of their heavy accents/limited English skills. My ancestors did it, why can't they?
2. We should not be admitting immigrants who are likely to become reliant on government benefits or are unlikely to contribute much to our economy (some developed countries already do this). We have a big enough problem with poverty as it is among our current citizens. It's sad that these people have to be poor, but hardworking taxpayers should not have to be burdened with this.
3. Illegal immigrants are exactly that - ILLEGAL. They should not be abused or treated cruelly when found, but they should be sent back where they came from. If they want to come to this country, do it through the proper legal means. If you can't comply with #1 and #2 above, you don't deserve to be here.
- Yes, I'm mean and not especially empathetic, but that's how I see it. I have a very Darwinian "survival of the fittest" outlook on life. What applies in nature applies to humans. We are animals, after all.


Smiles, Just a quick Note: Humans
Are Animals but Not Just Snakes
With Just Reptile Brains; and No i have
Nothing against Snakes, i see them
as Just another Lovely Part of Nature Now
Really Great at Keeping Nature in Overall Balance...

We Are More Closely Related, Overall
to Bonobos; our Closest
Cousins that Measure
Success With As
Much Love
as they
Give
And
Give Again;

In Deed, this is Refreshing
News for some of us; it is Not
Our Nature That Makes Us More Like
'Adam Smith Economies'; it is the Clothes
We Wear Culturally That Cover Up our Natural
Propensity to Be More Like Bonobos than Snakes...

It's Worth Noting that John Nash already Revised The Old
Adam Smith Version of Economical Success in Every Human
Most for their own Selfish Desires with 'Game Theory' of what
Supports the Group in Cooperation Supports the Individual Greatest too;
Short Video Below That Describes That Well; For me at Least, i find Honey Attracts more 'Flowers'

And Usually when i am in Flow All Filled Up in Bliss, Dancing and or Singing, Not Paying Attention

at all to any one,

i find Flowers

Most Colorful

of all....

Even at
60 Years-
Old; It is
Love Generated Within Without Needs
That Wins the Overall Game Best Per Actual Do too...

Anyway, Adam Smith is Already Revised; every once
in a While i find Spaces Yet to be more fully notified...

Additionally, John Nash admitted His Game Theory Was
Flawed, for He Did Not Have The Emotional Intelligence
to Properly complete His Human Equation for Loving All...

Not Much of a List Maker; More of a Free For
Aller And Alleist too MaKinG uP Words Free too...

Just another
Part of the
Over All Balancing 'Force God'
As some folks identify Reality too...

As usual, approximately 20 Percent of Bonobos
Are 'Sitters' and 'Right Wing' and the Other 80 Percent
kinda flies free.... Roving All around As Such So Free....

Don't even
Need a
Label,
Category, or just one Name...

i have over 2000 similar Photos to illustrate
this below but i don't wanna bore anyone...
Just pointing out again, 'Adam Smith' IS Revised...

In the Film Clip, John Nash and his Friends Were ALL
A Bit Short Sighted/Changed on 'THeir HeARTS'...

Credit CuLTuRE Still NOW
MosT ALWaYS Changing
of THeiR Day And Now too...

i Find All oF iT
Fascinating;
Everyone
Just doing Who
They are now and then again....

And to be Crystal Clear, i Appreciate People
Who Are Brave And Honest Enough to Admit Fully Who They Are...

Now That's Really Refreshing; haha, will be a bit Scary; But Still

Refreshing

to me

As i Rarely
Ever Get Scared..;)



Image


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envirozentinel
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21 Sep 2020, 2:04 pm

Speaking of snakes, I dreamed of some last night and that I was handling a brown, possibly harmless snake by reaching to hold it at the back of the neck as the snake handlers say you're supposed to.

They're all a part of life.


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AspiePrincess611
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21 Sep 2020, 2:16 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
I fully support saving animals and seeking efficacious cancer cures. Animals don't have a voice to champion their own cause. It's important to protect them from all forms of abuse.

I never said we should have to help those able bodied individuals who are able to work and have the opportunity to, but those who are unable to - even if they have an invisible disability such as being on the spectrum, as many are unable to fir into the workplace.

Ok, well maybe we did find some common ground! :D I do think that the goal should be to promote rehabilitation services and training for those of us with disabilities so that they are able to be productive, provide for themselves, and get off government assistance as much as possible. Although some, admittedly, probably won't be able to make enough money and will need a little help. And a small number might not be able to work at all, even with rehabilitation. But I believe most people can do some sort of work, they just need the right accommodations and to be treated with understanding. I myself have had a rough time finding the right job for me, but I just started a new job about a month ago and, fingers crossed, it seems like a great fit :D


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aghogday
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21 Sep 2020, 2:27 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
Speaking of snakes, I dreamed of some last night and that I was handling a brown, possibly harmless snake by reaching to hold it at the back of the neck as the snake handlers say you're supposed to.

They're all a part of life.


i am so Fortunate to Live
in the Forest With Just
A Small Drive to
Perhaps the
Most Beautiful
Beaches in the World;
Buying a Home where larger
Homes Without a Forest seemed
Not Valuable to Folks in '93, then; Smiles,
A Home in our Neighborhood is Now Selling
for Three times its original value and Now the
Price of much Bigger New Homes Without Forests;
i do Believe there is a Call of the Wild in Everyone
WHere given Enough Space in
'Concrete Life'
Wishes come
Now to Return
Home this way;
Fortunately, for
me, then, i felt the
'Need' closer to the
Beginning than the End;
Thriving This Way in Balance;
All This Rain We've Had in Florida
has Brought out so many Interesting
Species of Frogs; there is just no end
to the Wild Life Here at Home; hehe and
The Bars i visited and will visit again too,
after the Pandemic; i Love Free People
who just express All of who they are as
True they are getting Much Closer to Nature

And Human True AS Humans Come and Do Go;

Even Trump; he is truly 'A Piece of Work', Fascinating to me;
And Someone Who Will Go Down in History as Who He Truly is...

Thing is; There Are those Who Achieve Something and those Who

Achieve what is less

Than nothing...

Indeed,
This is
Karma
in Action for Real;

Love And 'Sulfur'
Both Have And Leave A Smell...

Going to the Beach Tomorrow
Where Record Breaking Star Fish
Have Washed up on the Beach; Sadly
The Toxic Waters of Human Washing
Back into the Gulf After The Hurricane
Left them No Choice But to Escape the Gulf
To Die on the Shores With No Way to Get Back;
My Wife Would Try to Save Each And Every one
But Sadly They are Already Dead; if she Knew it
Earlier She Would Have made me go help Save them;

Love is the
Best Blessing
my FRiEnD
Love For
All Small
And Large
Creatures
And at Least
Sympathy for
'The Devil' And
The Devil's Smell too...

Hehe, wanting to hear
'That' Song By the Rolling
Stones Now; 'LiGHT Bringers' too

Out of DarK too as Night Brings

Day As Trump May Bring More Love, Overall for HiS End Beyond All

His Means Now; It's Kinda Nice to Grow Older As An Ocean Deeper too...

Smiles, i'm Not 'That Good' at Directions Either, i Use ALL Wings iN FLiGHT

WHere
Subject
iS 'A Writer'...:)


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21 Sep 2020, 2:50 pm

Your wife looks a very compassionate person. Here too (South Africa), we have people who do their best for the marine creatures who wash up on the coast. We can't save them all but I take my hat off to those who make the effort.

Nature teaches us so much.


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madbutnotmad
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21 Sep 2020, 3:26 pm

Humanitarian. Neither Right or Left wing.
Not anti-government (as good governments do a lot of good, which all citizens benefit from).

Prefer honest democratic types of government, where the members are voted in by the citizens of a population, and then represent the interests of all the people in society.

Believe profit sharing for all in all employment. Profit sharing, if done properly will prevent economic stagnation.
Profit sharing also prevents monopolies and helps create opportunities for all, prevents minimum wage slavery.



funeralxempire
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21 Sep 2020, 3:46 pm

Decent-wing? :wink:


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aghogday
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21 Sep 2020, 4:00 pm

envirozentinel wrote:
Your wife looks a very compassionate person. Here too (South Africa), we have people who do their best for the marine creatures who wash up on the coast. We can't save them all but I take my hat off to those who make the effort.

Nature teaches us so much.



SMiles, Thanks..:)


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