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MarketAndChurch
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08 May 2011, 7:14 pm

Lefebvre wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Hang on, I'll look out my window..............
Nope, no concentration camp.
So no then, we're not Nazis.


Yes, and Auschwitz was in Poland.
And Guantanamo in Cuba, wasnt it?

'A room with a view, and you....'


Guantanamo's moral equivalent is not Auschwitz... A prisoner of war encampment that defies international law are not one of the same wherever they may exist. Unfortunate, sure. But circumstance and the acts carried out there make for gradations as in some are more evil, some are the ultimate epitome of evil, and some aren't so bad.

In the history of war-time POW detention-camps, if POW's throughout human history had to choose one POW camp to relive their imprisonment experience through(over the one they had to go through), ours would certainly rank up there in the preferred list.


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cdfox7
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08 May 2011, 10:48 pm

Lefebvre wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Hang on, I'll look out my window..............
Nope, no concentration camp.
So no then, we're not Nazis.


Yes, and Auschwitz was in Poland.
And Guantanamo in Cuba, wasnt it?

'A room with a view, and you....'


I'll love to hear how you associate E. M. Forster's novel with POW/concentration camps?



WorldsEdge
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10 May 2011, 8:10 pm

psychohist wrote:
The problem is, to most nonjews, they pretty much do speak with one voice. I've never heard agreement with any criticism of Israeli policy from a jew, even from those that I've accidentally seen criticizing that policy to other jews. To mollify the perception you dislike, jews need to be willing to discuss these issues with nonjews, rather than just closing ranks.


I guess you've never heard of Norman G. Finkelstein then? I'm not wholly convinced by his arguments, but nor am I sure he's wrong, at least in substance. Except for his mother and father, his whole family was exterminated by the Nazis. And what he has to say about Israel and Jewish advocacy groups in the USA, well, it ain't complimentary.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BaJCRXsgt4&feature=related[/youtube]


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psychohist
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10 May 2011, 10:03 pm

WorldsEdge wrote:
I guess you've never heard of Norman G. Finkelstein then?

He's not in my circle of acquaintances, no.



ruveyn
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11 May 2011, 8:35 am

Lefebvre wrote:
In the past there was Nazi Germany, now there is Nazi USA:
they violate international laws (Iraq, Pakistan), violate human rights (Guantanamo bay), support the world's most horrific state (Israel) that treats palestinian civilians as subhumans, invade any nation if they feel the urge.


One nation, one people, one Fuhrer,

Heil Obama!


Actually the U.S. is nine nations.

Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_N ... th_America

ruveyn



DevilInPgh
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11 May 2011, 11:32 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Wikipedia seems to have a good article on the National Socialist German Worker's Party > LINK <.
Wikipedia wrote:
Nazi ideology stressed the failures of laissez-faire capitalism, communism, economic liberalism, and democracy; advocated Positive Christianity; supported the "racial purity of the German people" and that of other Northwestern Europeans; and claimed itself as the protector of Germany from Jewish influence and corruption. The Nazis persecuted those they perceived as either race enemies or Lebensunwertes Leben, that is "life unworthy of living". This included Jews, Slavs, Roma, and so-called "Mischlinge" along with Communists, homosexuals, the mentally and physically disabled, and others. The persecution reached its climax when the party and the German state which it controlled organized the systematic murder of approximately six million Jews and six million other people from the other targeted groups, in what has become known as the Holocaust. Hitler's desire to build a German empire through expansionist policies led to the outbreak of World War II in Europe.

Enough said?



That is an academic (left-wing seminary) lens on what Nazi Germany should be - revisionist history. They always include the Christian component to strengthen the nationalism aspect of their definition of fascism.

In Mein Kapf, Hitler denounces Christianity as a spiritual terror that has smashed the much more preferable pagan alters of the much freer ancient world. "Christianity was not content with erecting an altar of its own. It had first to destroy the pagan altars."

When Protestant bishops visited the furer to register complaints, Hitler let loose his rage on them:
Quote:
“Christianity will disappear from Germany just as it has done in Russia . The German race has existed without Christianity for thousands of years . . . and will continue after Christianity has disappeared . . . We must get used to the teachings of blood and race.”
to which he continued to let them know that they are traitors to the volk, enemies of the fatherland, and destroyers of Germany.

1935, manditory prayers in school was abolished.
1938 carrols and nativity plays banned entirely.
1941 religious instruction for youths 14 and up were outlawed.
Hitler banned Religious charity to cripple the church funding. He put all clergy in Germany on state payroll as to put them under state authority, to which Hitler said: "“The parsons will be made to dig their own graves, they will betray their God to us. They will betray anything for the sake of their miserable little jobs and incomes.”

Feel free to read up HItlers thoughts online:

http://aryanism.net/downloads/books/ado ... e-talk.pdf


I suggest you read "Six Million Crucifixions" by Gabriel Wilensky. You'll see that you may have underestimated Nazi acceptance (and even collaboration) among Catholics and Protestants.

Furthermore, a well-known list of Catholic officials complicit in the Holocaust:
Cardinal Theodor Innitzer
Monsignor Jozef Tiso, President of the Independent State of Slovakia (a Nazi puppet state)
Archbishop Alois Stepinac (and Catholic Croatia in general under the rule of the Ustashe)
Cardinal Justinian Serédi of Hungary

So while Hitler may have disliked Christianity and religion in general, he was definitely not above co-opting religion for his own means.



DevilInPgh
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11 May 2011, 11:42 am

psychohist wrote:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
psychohist wrote:
The problem is, to most nonjews, they pretty much do speak with one voice. I've never heard agreement with any criticism of Israeli policy from a jew, even from those that I've accidentally seen criticizing that policy to other jews. To mollify the perception you dislike, jews need to be willing to discuss these issues with nonjews, rather than just closing ranks.
You've never heard of Noam Chomsky by any chance, have you?

I've heard of him, but the only things I know about him are that he holds linguistic theories that are totally at odds with the facts, and that his writing style makes things appear more complex than they are, which seems to impress some people. And now I'm inferring from your post that he's jewish.

Not that it would matter anyway. I'm talking about what I hear from jews I know personally, not what I read, and I certainly don't know Chomsky personally.


Oy, Chomsky. Yes, he considers himself to be Jewish, but (as you can see, this is typical of the Far Left) only when it is most convenient for him. These are the people who say, "As a Jew I am appalled..." while having never set foot in a synagogue for at least 10 years. Typically, they even go so far as to declare themselves openly atheist. I bet you people like Chomsky, Marcy Winograd, and Medea Benjamin couldn't tell you a modicum of Torah if you asked them and openly parade their ignorance of such material (well, maybe not Chomsky, if only because of his somewhat traditional upbringing rather than as a red-diaper baby, but his refusal to even comprehend the material and shut his ears as well as support of Holocaust deniers such as Robert Faurisson puts him in a special category).



Master_Pedant
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11 May 2011, 11:52 am

Vigilans wrote:
I really don't want to touch the whole Israel argument but suffice is to say, they use precision, while Palestinian organizations are indiscriminate. Israel has been willing to give back territory won during the A-I Wars in return for normalized relations (Sinai to Egypt). There are definitely some Israeli policies I am not a fan of but it is a much better country than basically all of its neighbors.


Various blockades Israel engages against Palestinian areas are anything but "precise". And I don't really consider "being better than other countries in the region" a really good excuse when your nation is a transplant formed by the actions of the UN migrating various displaced people to a new land (thereby displacing other people in the process) in the very late 1940s and sustained with massive amounts of military aid/unconditional support from America. I expect a little better of scuh countries.


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