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pandabear
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20 May 2011, 2:48 pm

Several times already, Inuyasha has expressed a disdainful attitude towards the Chevy Volt.

For example:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts158790-start45.html

The Sweet Inuyasha wrote:
If Obamacare is constitutional, then what is to stop Government penalizing you for not buying the Chevy Volt? People are not buying that particular car because quite frankly it is a piece of junk, but you are arguing that Government can come in and fine people for not buying a car they don't want.


and

http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/postt155303.html
The Darling Inuyasha wrote:
It is penalizing someone for not participating in commerce.
What next we are all required to buy the Chevy Volt?


This can only mean one thing: that Inuyasha's favourite commentators have been bashing the Chevy Volt, most likely using the same terms.

Sure enough, a Google search of either Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck plus Chevy Volt reveals that both (especially the knucklle-headed Limbaugh) have been unleashing horrible tirades against the car.

So, does anyone have any opinion about this car, other than "Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck say it is bad, and all I know how to do is parrot what they have to say about everything, no matter how absurd?"



aghogday
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20 May 2011, 3:21 pm

Too expensive. If they ever get prices down close to $20,0000 maybe; but 33,500 after a 7,500 tax break is just too much, for anyone that currently can't afford gasoline prices.

The Nissan Leaf is supposed to be around 25,000 after the tax credit. So their making progress. The volt looks like every other sedan, but this one is definitely unique. It's weird, I kind of like it and I kind of hate the way it looks. Not much car though for 25K.

If gas prices go above $6 or $7 a gallon, people might start giving the lease for around $350 per month a second look.

Until then I don't see it actually helping many people that can't afford the price of gas.



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20 May 2011, 3:32 pm

It is a mystery to me how running a car off batteries - even today's batteries - instead of petroleum byproducts

When it is probably still using and leaking petroleum byproducts for various lubrication purposes.

And when in 99% of all cases the thing will need to be charged by plugging into the grid even with access to today's solar and wind resources,

Which grid UNLESS we relent on nuclear which has its own problems and is just as fossil though different

Will be consuming petroleum byproducts OR fossil and dusky coal OR modern vegetable byproducts which while in theory renewable up to a point come with theier own costs

is going to save us from consuming fossil resources and emitting carbon.

Of did I miss the part where we learn to tap into the Universal Energy [which has been done by the Saucer Folk which is why the galaxuy is getting clogged with Dark Matter which has already affected the Entropic Constant and interferes with Healing Mind Contact.



MarketAndChurch
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20 May 2011, 4:45 pm

aghogday wrote:
Too expensive. If they ever get prices down close to $20,0000 maybe; but 33,500 after a 7,500 tax break is just too much, for anyone that currently can't afford gasoline prices.

The Nissan Leaf is supposed to be around 25,000 after the tax credit. So their making progress. The volt looks like every other sedan, but this one is definitely unique. It's weird, I kind of like it and I kind of hate the way it looks. Not much car though for 25K.

If gas prices go above $6 or $7 a gallon, people might start giving the lease for around $350 per month a second look.

Until then I don't see it actually helping many people that can't afford the price of gas.


agreed.

The attempt here was to remake GM's image, not to give Americans an affordable alternative to the Japanese. GM could've packaged the Volt as a Cruze but decided that an entirely new car R&D'd essentially from scratch(Minus the Voltec/DeltaII platform it rides on) was worth it to change consumer perceptions about the brand. Ford saved a lot money and time by developing good looking cars that could serve as a platform for it's hybrid and EV ambitions:

Image
Image


They have yet to go on sale, but have the good looks and the hybrid range of the Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf. (I think HP will be similar, but both of those cars have slightly more torque.)

it also seems like demand from early-adopters are starting to sizzle down, and I see it not reaching that much beyond the peak that its reached in the limited states where it's available.(Nissan Leaf and Chevy Volt Sales are about dead even now). As noted, it might take up to $6.00/gallon or more popularize these cars, and at the end of the year, they may not even reach 10,000 units, which is far from the amount both companies to move to justify

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/05/03/sale ... -in-april/

Those states were chosen because of anticipated potential high-demand for the car. So the subsides were put in place till the consumer could pick up but I see this as a waist of taxpayer dollars for a car whose numbers will never justify it's costs.


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MarketAndChurch
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20 May 2011, 4:52 pm

Philologos wrote:
It is a mystery to me how running a car off batteries - even today's batteries - instead of petroleum byproducts

When it is probably still using and leaking petroleum byproducts for various lubrication purposes.

And when in 99% of all cases the thing will need to be charged by plugging into the grid even with access to today's solar and wind resources,

Which grid UNLESS we relent on nuclear which has its own problems and is just as fossil though different

Will be consuming petroleum byproducts OR fossil and dusky coal OR modern vegetable byproducts which while in theory renewable up to a point come with theier own costs

is going to save us from consuming fossil resources and emitting carbon.

Of did I miss the part where we learn to tap into the Universal Energy [which has been done by the Saucer Folk which is why the galaxuy is getting clogged with Dark Matter which has already affected the Entropic Constant and interferes with Healing Mind Contact.


It may also humor you to know that it has a gasoline engine (It is not all-electric) which turns on after you run out of the battery to provide extended range. This gasoline engine then powers an electric engine that propels the car forward. Essentially, the volt doesn't fare very well in price - as reflected in its packaging(though I find it strikingly handsome) - and C02 emissions. It emits more C02 then:

Honda CRZ
Honda Insight
Toyota Prius
VW Jetta TDI

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/23/ca ... rius-or-j/


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iamnotaparakeet
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20 May 2011, 4:56 pm

Actually, if I were to get an electric vehicle I'd probably prefer a Tesla motors one since the CEO of that company is also CEO of SpaceX, but either way the range of either a fully electric vehicle or a hybrid is still kinda scrawny. Also, for a hybrid, once the charge runs too low it switches to a generator, of which generators tend to be less efficient in the use of combustion than regular motors. Until we get Star Trek batteries, you know like those which would be able to power a hand phaser capable of vaporizing this, that, and the other, electric and hybrid vehicles will remain rather short range and impractical for anyone wishing to make more than a 40 mile round trip between charging cycles.



MarketAndChurch
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20 May 2011, 5:23 pm

pandabear wrote:

This can only mean one thing: that Inuyasha's favourite commentators have been bashing the Chevy Volt, most likely using the same terms.

Sure enough, a Google search of either Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck plus Chevy Volt reveals that both (especially the knucklle-headed Limbaugh) have been unleashing horrible tirades against the car.

So, does anyone have any opinion about this car, other than "Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck say it is bad, and all I know how to do is parrot what they have to say about everything, no matter how absurd?"


I think it is an ill-conceived venture by GM and the Federal Government. This is as much a gamble as GM announcing it will go public before it is financially sound to do so.

I would support the Volt if they spent an extra 1 or 2 years further developing this car before bringing it to market - it is our Tax dollars that kept this program alive, and our tax dollars who artificially prop up it's costs until an "assumed" demand on behalf of consumers pick up and take over... My preference is that they just put the powertrain into existing GM cars and save the taxpayer some money in reduced manufacturing and R&D costs - like Ford did.

In all, this Hybrid deservers every criticism thrown at it. Not because it deserves it... No. But because there is an opposition whose agenda is to prop this car up at all costs. The concept of an EV or Hybrid is a great step forward for GM but has all the drawbacks that I noted above. Additionally, it is not even an All-Electric EV, it is a Hybrid(like the Prius, Ford EscapeHybrid, and Honda VW Jetta TDI). It costs 45,000 and after rebates somewhere in the mid-to-low 30's. It doesn't even get 0 emissions. Yet it lands the

Green Car Of The Year Award?
Motor Trend Car Of The Year Award?
North American Car Of The Year Award?

I don't recall if C&D, Popular Mechanics, or CNET have given their awards out either, but I feel the Chevy Volt get's undeserved praise, at the expense of the Nissan Leaf which is 25,000 after the tax credit, gets 100 mile range, pure-electric, and 0 emissions. If that's not praise-worthy of every Green or NA car award out there, then politics has to be involved. I don't mind the Limbaugh crowd because annoying political chorus from the other direction is deafening and unprofessional. The Chevy volt is not that bad a car and needs to get those quirks taken cared of in its 2nd generation, but until then, let the pointless Left and Right un-necessary battles commence.


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ruveyn
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20 May 2011, 5:47 pm

The weakness of electric cars at this juncture is the battery. The Energy/Weight ratio of current batteries is way too low. When batteries or other means of storing energy aboard the auto is improved the range of driving will increase and the price will come down and more people will buy them.

One possibility of energy storage is the flywheel. Not the big iron kind by flywheels made from carbon composites. Very strong, very light and capable of being spun up to very high r.p.m. say 10,000 rpm. Such devices can produce electricity to run the auto's motors.

Hydrogen fuel cells are another possibility, but the price has to come way down. Fuel cells have been successfully used in manned space craft. They were used during the Apollo Program.

In any case, the current storage battery technology is insufficient and that is one reason why electric cars are going nowhere fast.

ruveyn



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20 May 2011, 5:50 pm

Here is what Edmund's has to say

http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/

Quote:

The Chevrolet Volt represents a voyage into uncharted waters for both General Motors and automakers in general. A so-called plug-in hybrid, the front-wheel-drive Volt is a four-door, four-seat hatchback that's motivated primarily by a 149-horsepower electric motor.

The motor is coupled to two power sources -- an advanced lithium-ion battery pack and a four-cylinder internal-combustion engine. According to Chevrolet, the former is good for up to 35 miles by itself, while the latter can extend the car's range by as much as 340 miles. You charge the battery pack from either a regular wall outlet or a specialized charger when the car is parked, and you refill the engine's fuel tank as necessary.

So what's the big deal? Well, Chevrolet is the first automaker to try this formula in a mass-market car. The advantages are clear -- the Volt uses no gasoline on short trips and is frugal with the stuff (up to an estimated 37 mpg) when the battery pack runs out of juice and the engine comes on line.

Time will tell whether consumers can swallow the Chevy Volt's $40,000-plus price tag, though current government incentives knock that down by about $7,000. There are also other green-oriented alternatives, from standard hybrids to Nissan's new, all-electric Leaf to Toyota's upcoming plug-in Prius. But we can be sure of one thing -- this plug-in Chevy is a milestone in the march toward a more efficient automotive future.

Current Chevrolet Volt
The Chevrolet Volt debuted for the 2011 model year. A plug-in hybrid, it utilizes two electric motors -- the first is rated at 149 hp (111 kilowatts) and 273 pound-feet of torque and the second is a 72 hp (54 kW) unit that can provide propulsion or act as a generator via the gasoline engine. A 16kW-hour lithium-ion battery pack supplies electrical power to the motors until its charge is about 60 percent depleted (that's good for about 25-40 miles of electric-only driving). At that point, the Volt's 1.4-liter four-cylinder internal combustion engine, which runs on gasoline, comes to life to maintain the battery's state of charge and provide mechanical propulsion assistance. Drive force is sent to the front wheels through a specialized planetary gearset.

Standard feature highlights include a fixed glass sunroof, a full complement of airbags, stability control, keyless ignition/entry, OnStar automatic climate control, a split-folding rear seatback, Bluetooth, a voice-activated navigation system and a Bose six-speaker sound system. Leather upholstery and heated front seats are optional. A Volt owner can monitor the car's status and set charging times through an online Web portal or a mobile phone app.

In our reviews, we've found that the Chevrolet Volt has satisfying zip at low speeds thanks to its electric motor, which offers abundant torque. The overall driving experience is a bit bland, as one would expect from a car designed to maximize energy efficiency. But the Volt certainly isn't a laggard, and overall performance is similar to what you'd get from a normal four-cylinder-equipped family sedan. As with other hybrids, the brakes are regenerative to help charge the battery, but pedal feel is quite normal. Around town and on the highway, the Volt is exceptionally quiet.

Inside, the Chevy Volt features a unique dashboard layout that's part spaceship, part iPod -- and pretty darn cool. There's a high-tech gauge readout behind the steering wheel and a swoopy center stack that looks like an oversized high-end electronic device. The rear seat is adequate for two adults, but there's no middle seat thanks to the T-shaped battery pack, which occupies this slot as well as part of the trunk. Cargo capacity is limited due to the Volt's rakish roof line and that hefty battery pack, though the rear seatbacks do fold down.


I like the Japanese hybrids myself, and don't feel like buying another American car again.



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20 May 2011, 6:03 pm

Some more from Edmunds

http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/volt/2011/#fullreview

Quote:
What Edmunds Says

The 2011 Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid is arguably the most fuel-efficient car on the market, but it's pricey for what you get.

Pros
Low monthly fuel cost in normal driving; useful 300-mile maximum range; appealing standard features; high-tech cabin.

Cons
Questionable value; small backseat for two people only; touchy brakes; no power front seats; home charger is a necessity.

What's New for 2011

The 2011 Chevrolet Volt is Chevy's much-anticipated new plug-in battery/gasoline hybrid, featuring an electric-only mode with a range of up to 40 miles.

Introduction

So what exactly is the 2011 Chevrolet Volt? It's a question we get all the time. A confusing array of claims and rumors have been swirling around this car since it debuted as a concept a few years back, so we're not surprised that people aren't clear on what the Volt is all about.

Here's the long and short of it: The Volt is a four-seat, four-door "series-parallel plug-in hybrid" hatchback with a lithium-ion battery pack that can power the car's 149-horsepower (111-kilowatt) electric motor by itself for an estimated 40 miles in the city. After that, the gasoline-powered inline-4 engine primarily supplies electricity to the motor for as many as 300 additional miles. All told, the Volt is the most advanced hybrid to date and quite possibly the most fuel-efficient car you will be able to buy.

We say "quite possibly" because you can't measure the Volt's fuel economy in any standard fashion. It all depends on how you drive. Suppose you have a 20-mile round-trip commute, and you plug in your Volt every night when you get home (a full charge requires as few as 3 hours). Congratulations! Your fuel economy is infinity, because you'll never run the battery pack down all the way. But if you have a 100-mile commute, you'll be driving at least 60 miles a day under gasoline power, so you'll have to refuel on a regular basis. And in an Edmunds fuel economy test of a Volt with its battery depleted, the car returned only 31.4 mpg in mixed driving. That's far below the typical fuel economy provided by regular hybrid vehicles.

Obviously, how far you routinely drive will play a key role in how thrifty the Volt will be. We think most potential owners will be able to take advantage of its electric range. And electricity costs for recharging are but a fraction for the equivalent amount of gasoline. What's not clear is whether those savings are worth what you'll have to pay at the dealership. Even with a $7,500 federal tax credit, a base Volt will still cost $33,500 -- and that's without the home charging station that's essentially mandatory for a plug-in hybrid like the Volt. There's also a strong likelihood that dealers will try to gouge early customers with sky-high markups.

Still, there is no denying the Volt's technological promise. Most importantly, it has the ability to keep on going when its battery runs down (say, on a road trip), whereas an all-electric vehicle like Nissan's Leaf does not. If you want an intriguing yet practical taste of a greener automotive future, the 2011 Chevy Volt might be just what the General ordered.

Body Styles, Trim Levels, and Options

The 2011 Chevrolet Volt is a midsize five-door hatchback sedan with seating for four.

Standard features include 17-inch alloy wheels, automatic headlights, heated mirrors, keyless ignition, remote ignition, automatic climate control, cruise control, auto-dimming rearview mirror, six-way manual front seats, tilt-and-telescoping steering wheel, cloth upholstery, Bluetooth, OnStar, a navigation system with touchscreen, voice controls and real-time traffic, and a six-speaker Bose stereo with CD/DVD player, auxiliary audio jack, iPod/USB interface and 30GB of digital music storage.

The Premium Trim package adds leather upholstery, a leather-wrapped steering wheel and heated front seats. The Rear Camera and Park Assist package adds a rearview camera and front and rear parking sensors.

Powertrains and Performance

The front-wheel-drive 2011 Volt is primarily powered by an electric motor rated at 149 hp (111 kilowatts) and 273 pound-feet of torque. This motor draws power from a lithium-ion battery pack until the battery charge is 70 percent depleted. At that point, the Volt's 1.4-liter four-cylinder internal combustion engine, which requires premium fuel, comes to life as a replacement power source for the electric motor. Under certain higher-speed conditions, the four-cylinder can also help power the wheels directly.

The battery can only be completely recharged through either a 120- or 240-volt outlet, but regenerative braking and the engine generator can replenish it slightly. In Edmunds range and fuel economy testing, we found the Volt had an electricity range of between 30 and 39 miles in mixed driving. When the battery is depleted, it returned 31.4 mpg. However, the term "your mileage may vary" has never been so true.

In Edmunds performance testing, the Volt went from zero to 60 mph in 9.2 seconds in electric mode and 9 seconds flat with the engine generator. Both are fairly quick times for the traditional hybrid segment.

Safety

Safety features on the 2011 Chevy Volt include antilock brakes, stability control, front side airbags, front knee airbags and full-length side curtain airbags. In Edmunds brake testing, the Volt came to a stop in a respectable 124 feet.

Interior Design and Special Features

The 2011 Chevrolet Volt's distinctive center stack appears to have been modeled after various personal electronic devices with touch-sensitive buttons. It looks less like an automotive control panel than an oversized iPod, which we applaud; after all, if you're spending this much money on a vehicle, you'll likely expect a little something special inside. Overall interior quality is also high, with materials that seem to be the best yet from recently improved Chevrolet.

There's plenty of technology involved, too, including a standard color display with a built-in hard drive. In terms of functionality, the Volt's main controls are fairly intuitive, and the futuristic gauge readout is easy enough to read at a glance (though it washes out in sunlight). There's also a nice little ball -- sort of like the bubble in a water level -- that helps you stay in the most energy-efficient driving range. It's big and green when you are conserving fuel or battery energy and smaller and angry orange-yellow when you're not.

Space and comfort is a little disappointing. There is no power driver seat option, which limits adjustability and seems like an oversight in a car that costs $41,000. In back, there are just two seats, and they lack both headroom and legroom; adults will likely feel cramped.

The Volt's hatchback design is convenient for loading cargo, but the swooping rear roof line and battery pack location limit maximum luggage capacity to just 10.6 cubic feet with the back seats up. The rear seats fold down to expand cargo capacity, but overall practicality is below that of a Prius.

Driving Impressions

The 2011 Chevrolet Volt accelerates quickly from a standstill and is very responsive at moderate speeds as well; it's the kind of performance that's typical of electric vehicles.

In all-electric mode, the Volt is as quiet and smooth as any EV we've driven -- and it's still a competent vehicle when the engine-generator kicks in. The change-over from battery charge to generator power can be difficult to notice, though once you inevitably do, it may take a while to get used to the engine revving regardless of engine speed.

The Chevy Volt feels slightly nose-heavy when you bend it around a corner, but it makes its moves with little body roll. Indeed, from the compliance of its ride quality to the weight and response of the steering, this Chevy Volt drives more naturally and feels more substantial than hybrids like the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius. One problem area is the brake pedal. It is quite touchy and can be difficult to modulate, though stopping distances are good.


Okay, maybe we should just get out of the car business and let the Japanese take over completely. :roll:



thewrll
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20 May 2011, 6:05 pm

Until we can go through states not just less than one state with our car I wouldnt buy and electric car. Or maybe if we had that idea where instead of gas stations we have battery stations. But it sounds like that takes too long to install and what is the cost of that battery.



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20 May 2011, 6:06 pm

pandabear wrote:

Okay, maybe we should just get out of the car business and let the Japanese take over completely. :roll:


Think again. The Japanese incrementally improve and package systems invented outside of Japan. The Japanese have not provided the breakthrough in energy storage that is required to get rid of gasoline and diesel powered vehicles.

What is likely is that the Tesla company (a startup) will make the break through and the Japanese will buy them out.

ruveyn



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20 May 2011, 6:17 pm

ruveyn wrote:
The weakness of electric cars at this juncture is the battery. The Energy/Weight ratio of current batteries is way too low. When batteries or other means of storing energy aboard the auto is improved the range of driving will increase and the price will come down and more people will buy them.

One possibility of energy storage is the flywheel. Not the big iron kind by flywheels made from carbon composites. Very strong, very light and capable of being spun up to very high r.p.m. say 10,000 rpm. Such devices can produce electricity to run the auto's motors.

Hydrogen fuel cells are another possibility, but the price has to come way down. Fuel cells have been successfully used in manned space craft. They were used during the Apollo Program.

In any case, the current storage battery technology is insufficient and that is one reason why electric cars are going nowhere fast.

ruveyn


I don't really see the range being that big of an issue to Americans buying it. Most people don't even drive 40 miles a day, so the 100mile range meets most consumers daily needs.

I don't think Hydrogen is a good route - though I need to read more on it - because It is not a renewable resource. There are plans in India to make hydrogen as cheap as a dollar a gallon, much like their plans to make air-travel as cheap as 1 rupee. Only 3% of of the water on this planet is freshwater, and an even smaller percentage of that is drinkable, so I hopefully they figure out a way to source hydrogen sustainably. It also uses up a lot of energy just to create energy so that's also to consider.


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20 May 2011, 6:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:
pandabear wrote:

Okay, maybe we should just get out of the car business and let the Japanese take over completely. :roll:


Think again. The Japanese incrementally improve and package systems invented outside of Japan. The Japanese have not provided the breakthrough in energy storage that is required to get rid of gasoline and diesel powered vehicles.

What is likely is that the Tesla company (a startup) will make the break through and the Japanese will buy them out.

ruveyn


Most likely.
Toyota and Tesla announce Partnership:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/05/20/brea ... in-califo/

Details on the partnership arise:
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/29/mo ... its-far-f/

Toyota rumored to develop its next EV prototype using Tesla Tech
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/06/14/rumo ... ototype-b/

Toyota Develops EV prototype using Tesla Battery Pack
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/07/09/toyo ... tery-pack/


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ruveyn
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20 May 2011, 6:22 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:

I don't really see the range being that big of an issue to Americans buying it. Most people don't even drive 40 miles a day, so the 100mile range meets most consumers daily needs.

I don't think Hydrogen is a good route - though I need to read more on it - because It is not a renewable resource. There are plans in India to make hydrogen as cheap as a dollar a gallon, much like their plans to make air-travel as cheap as 1 rupee. Only 3% of of the water on this planet is freshwater, and an even smaller percentage of that is drinkable, so I hopefully they figure out a way to source hydrogen sustainably. It also uses up a lot of energy just to create energy so that's also to consider.



40 miles is a rather short commute. Many people drive twice that distance. Then there are the long trips that salesmen make.

As to hydrogen. Hydrogen is not a primary energy source. All the free hydrogen on earth is now tied up in compound, the most plentiful of which is water. Hydrogen is gotten by breaking down other compounds chemically or electrically. Assume we get hydrogen by breaking down water. We will still need an energy source to generate the electricity to do that. So electric cars do not solve the energy problem or even the air pollution problem.

ruveyn



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20 May 2011, 6:31 pm

pandabear wrote:
Several times already, Inuyasha has expressed a disdainful attitude towards the Chevy Volt.

For example:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/posts158790-start45.html
The Sweet Inuyasha wrote:
If Obamacare is constitutional, then what is to stop Government penalizing you for not buying the Chevy Volt? People are not buying that particular car because quite frankly it is a piece of junk, but you are arguing that Government can come in and fine people for not buying a car they don't want.


and

http://cdn.wrongplanet.net/postt155303.html
The Darling Inuyasha wrote:
It is penalizing someone for not participating in commerce.
What next we are all required to buy the Chevy Volt?


This can only mean one thing: that Inuyasha's favourite commentators have been bashing the Chevy Volt, most likely using the same terms.

Sure enough, a Google search of either Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck plus Chevy Volt reveals that both (especially the knucklle-headed Limbaugh) have been unleashing horrible tirades against the car.

So, does anyone have any opinion about this car, other than "Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck say it is bad, and all I know how to do is parrot what they have to say about everything, no matter how absurd?"


The OP is pretty much an attack on a WP member which is against the TOS but since it's a left to right attack I guess it'll be overlooked. :roll:

Even though I see these so called "green" cars on the streets they don't seem to be very widely accepted.
They lack size, power, and range and are expensive for what little they are.
I guess it's just the thought of a "green" car that counts, though.......