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MarketAndChurch
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07 Jun 2011, 1:40 am

RainingRoses wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
it doesn't hurt to (re)introduce them to it in a fun way - without them knowing your true intentions.

It doesn't?

Why does there seem to be so much "what people don't know won't hurt them" in these forums lately? I won't pretend to know the answer to (let alone be the final arbiter of) all this, but it does confuse and concern me.


I guess my reasoning is more noble then his - It let's the two of them spend time together, get physically healthy which is good for their relationship, and look good naked - and if it doesn't work out, you know you tried, you still love her for her, and no one's feelings get hurt. Would you be fine if he deceived her with good intentions?

Him being honest projects his preference of the ideal her, one that she currently doesn't live up to. Even if she understands that it's from a good place that it comes from, it isn't something that ever goes away and even if she becomes fit some day, will still live in her subconscious, and can be easily nurtured unintentionally.


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MollyTroubletail
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07 Jun 2011, 1:41 am

It's kinder to mask your intentions if the girl is NT. They can't cope with directness, which we prefer.



Sallamandrina
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07 Jun 2011, 1:51 am

GoatOnFire wrote:
Sallamandrina wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
The Vary your choice of words as needed seems to be the part that everyone's still hung up about.

People who replied are clearly "hung up" about his motivation, not his choice of words.

Would it be worse for him to be honest about it and put forth a suggestion that could be construed as insulting, or would it be worse for him to use word choice to mask his intentions?

I can only speak for myself and with me it would be much better to be honest - finding later he lied about his intentions would probably end the relationship.


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MarketAndChurch
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07 Jun 2011, 2:06 am

Sallamandrina wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
The Vary your choice of words as needed seems to be the part that everyone's still hung up about.

People who replied are clearly "hung up" about his motivation, not his choice of words.


I thought it was his choice of words on how he should approach what is a sensitive issue... Perhaps you are right, and if that is the case, do you view his wanting her to look more attractive a superficial pursuit? I don't...

If he's a great guy (btw, OP... are you a great guy?) and she's a great gal, and if this is a strong relationship, her loosing weight and looking better can only make it stronger. Looks are important but are secondary to liking each other for who we are, but he has that part down, so for attraction sake, let's keep this relationship and the two people involved attractive...

whatever arms the relationship because when she's acting sour, she's not attractive no matter how good she looks, love comes in waves, and the two of them can grow apart over time.


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Sallamandrina
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07 Jun 2011, 2:23 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sallamandrina wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
The Vary your choice of words as needed seems to be the part that everyone's still hung up about.

People who replied are clearly "hung up" about his motivation, not his choice of words.


I thought it was his choice of words on how he should approach what is a sensitive issue... Perhaps you are right, and if that is the case, do you view his wanting her to look more attractive a superficial pursuit? I don't...

I'm not sure as I don't have enough details. I have no idea how his girlfriend thinks either but again can say how things are for me - I'm in very good shape and if that would change for reasons unrelated to health or medication I would appreciate if my husband tried to help and motivate me to get back in shape. Working out or even better playing a sport together can be great fun. If I wasn't in shape when the relationship started I would probably dislike the suggestion as I would think he just "settled" while wanting someone "hotter" so I would doubt his real feelings for me.

I've always been wary of men who focused a lot on my looks, because I knew one day they will fade - looks and lust don't last forever and you need a lot more than that for a relationship to endure. In this context, MollyTroubletail's approach seems very reasonable to me.


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MarketAndChurch
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07 Jun 2011, 2:40 am

MollyTroubletail wrote:
It's kinder to mask your intentions if the girl is NT. They can't cope with directness, which we prefer.


Indeed. I too have been thinking this for some time with regards to NT's.

I told a girl - I forgot how I worded it - something along those lines when I was 16. I felt our closeness in our friendship allowed me room for honesty that I know for a fact would repulse the average person, and I know it threw her off. She was interested in some guy and our conversation on the topic evolved into her looks.

Even if you are well-intentioned, there are some things you have to lie about and you don't have to tell your NT female friends or girlfriend / wife / partner everything under the sun - unless you are prepared to take on the consequences. We stopped talking after high school - not because of it but because she moved off to college - but I know our relationship felt different afterwards.

My guiding philosophy for some time now is to love people in the way they understand love, and from what I've gathered, there's a lot of decent men out there who are very happy about the fact that their partner cares even a little bit about their looks. Attraction doesn't end after you hook up and can only help a good relationship become better.


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MarketAndChurch
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07 Jun 2011, 3:21 am

Sallamandrina wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Sallamandrina wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
The Vary your choice of words as needed seems to be the part that everyone's still hung up about.

People who replied are clearly "hung up" about his motivation, not his choice of words.


I thought it was his choice of words on how he should approach what is a sensitive issue... Perhaps you are right, and if that is the case, do you view his wanting her to look more attractive a superficial pursuit? I don't...

I'm not sure as I don't have enough details. I have no idea how his girlfriend thinks either but again can say how things are for me - I'm in very good shape and if that would change for reasons unrelated to health or medication I would appreciate if my husband tried to help and motivate me to get back in shape. Working out or even better playing a sport together can be great fun. If I wasn't in shape when the relationship started I would probably dislike the suggestion as I would think he just "settled" while wanting someone "hotter" so I would doubt his real feelings for me.

I've always been wary of men who focused a lot on my looks, because I knew one day they will fade - looks and lust don't last forever and you need a lot more than that for a relationship to endure. In this context, MollyTroubletail's approach seems very reasonable to me.



No I didn't mean from him, but those of us discussing his approach to this. I too don't have much details to go by either - my default is to assume an NT and my experience has always been with NT's.

I also think you prove the point of what honesty can do to a person. I am personally not a pro-honesty guy because I've discovered what a true purist who follows a honest life involves... you push away those who matter to you the most, and if you have AS, often hurt them in the process while not having a clue of the un-necessary hurt you have caused. A loving mother is never fully honest with their child because they know how crippling un-necessary truths are to them trying new things - and there are nicer slightly-less truthful ways of saying things that doesn't sacrifice what you believe in, and accomplishes the same results. Adults are the same way, but men share these things with men and not women, and women share these things with other women, not men.

When you plant an idea or way of looking at something into someone's reality, you are the genesis of it. It can dwell in their subconscious long after it, and even if the relationship ends, long after you are gone. Your honesty could harbor feelings of inadequacy, like they don't meet something you want. Often, our decisions in subsequent relationships are a reaction to our former relationships, and if she leaves feeling hurt from being not attractive enough for her, she may try to change that for her second relationship, but for the wrong reason.

I am largely the same way and my looks have been a crutch. It raises peoples expectations of me, especially socially, one I often am never able to meet. I would happily trade with someone who thinks they look inadequate to match how inadequate I feel. Then I won't have my hopes raised un-necessarily, just to find that they were attracted to a face and not the person behind it. Yea I'm a bit of a geek, could never have imagined myself with these beautiful women to begin with, and enjoy alone time, but having a lonely existence punctured by people who are temporarily attracted to you physically just to be turned off after they found out about the real you hurts.


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Sallamandrina
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07 Jun 2011, 3:44 am

I'll probably get hell for this, but I agree with your view on honesty - it's been my experience that most people will insist you tell them the truth then get horribly upset and angry if you do. Even when you're able to use tact. Too many people want you to say what they want to hear and you're mistaken if you think only NTs are like that - it happens on this forum every other day.

I'm more than willing to spare people's feelings by choosing my words carefully or lying by omission but that's as far as I'll go. I don't do white lies. It's indeed harder to form and keep relationships of any kind this way but when you do you'll be highly valued for your honesty and integrity by like minded people. At least that's how it went for me, I hope it does for you too :)


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07 Jun 2011, 4:41 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
MollyTroubletail wrote:
It's kinder to mask your intentions if the girl is NT. They can't cope with directness, which we prefer.


Indeed. I too have been thinking this for some time with regards to NT's.

I told a girl - I forgot how I worded it - something along those lines when I was 16. I felt our closeness in our friendship allowed me room for honesty that I know for a fact would repulse the average person, and I know it threw her off. She was interested in some guy and our conversation on the topic evolved into her looks.

Even if you are well-intentioned, there are some things you have to lie about and you don't have to tell your NT female friends or girlfriend / wife / partner everything under the sun - unless you are prepared to take on the consequences. We stopped talking after high school - not because of it but because she moved off to college - but I know our relationship felt different afterwards.

My guiding philosophy for some time now is to love people in the way they understand love, and from what I've gathered, there's a lot of decent men out there who are very happy about the fact that their partner cares even a little bit about their looks. Attraction doesn't end after you hook up and can only help a good relationship become better.

aspies dont like honesty either if its hurtful. Its a universal thing that people do not like to be called fat/ugly/stupid etc.



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07 Jun 2011, 4:44 am

Jet102fm wrote:
Let's suppose I have a girlfriend, not necessarily out-of-shape. How many of you asked your boyfriend/girlfriend to work out, preferably with you? This I ask is because it would be nice for me to have a girl who's looks I can stare after. Other than that, I like her for her.

I like exercise and would expect any bf I had to work out with me. However that is because I would want to share my hobby with them rather than because i didnt like how they looked.

If your gf ever has a baby she will put on weight, or if she gets an injury or sick, that is part of a long term relationship. If you do not like her enough to cope with a bit of fat then you will not tolerate her long term. Also as she ages she will get saggy and wrinkly- will you insist she has surgery?



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07 Jun 2011, 4:47 am

Quote:
fat/ugly/stupid


Two of those words are subjective to personal interpretation one is a disposition of a persons body type.

I imagine there are people in this world I find ugly or stupid or both that others will find the opposite in and vice versa. And I imagine there are other people who would think the same of me and vice versa.

The only thing I can't eliminate is that I am fat as that happens to be a fact :lol:


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07 Jun 2011, 7:47 am

i advocate total blunt honesty in this case because it at least allows the woman to choose for herself whether she wants to stay with someone who is critical of her appearance. maybe she can live with that, though i doubt it. i feel it is necessary to again point out that that OP's female in question was not necessarily out of shape, but was simply not enough of a head turner. important distinction there.


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spongy
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07 Jun 2011, 8:15 am

This isnt helping a girl to work out. Helping a girl to work out would mean that she was wanting to do it but she is unable to do it on her own. For example she enjoyed jogging/ running outdoors but she has to do it on her own and she is scared of what may happen if she keeps doing it on her own so she asked you to join her.


This is: I would like my gf to start working out but I´m not sure how to avoid making it seem that Im shallow. You are not going to find much helpfull advice on this board because its for love and dating and if you were in love with her you wouldnt care about her figure.



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07 Jun 2011, 8:21 am

No one here is equipped to advise you on what wording to use when asking her to go to the gym because no one here knows this woman. Some people preffer blunt honesty and others are extremely sensitive about it (NT, AS or otherwise). You'll have to figure out how best to ask her yourself.

As for motives, as long as you join her and are supportive I don't see a problem. I wouldn't feel hurt if my hypothetical girlfriend proposed to work out together, I'd actually be excited about it.


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07 Jun 2011, 10:40 am

Sallamandrina wrote:
I'll probably get hell for this, but I agree with your view on honesty - it's been my experience that most people will insist you tell them the truth then get horribly upset and angry if you do. Even when you're able to use tact. Too many people want you to say what they want to hear and you're mistaken if you think only NTs are like that - it happens on this forum every other day.

I'm more than willing to spare people's feelings by choosing my words carefully or lying by omission but that's as far as I'll go. I don't do white lies. It's indeed harder to form and keep relationships of any kind this way but when you do you'll be highly valued for your honesty and integrity by like minded people. At least that's how it went for me, I hope it does for you too :)

You won't get hell from me! I do this -- have to do this -- all the time. Three very recent examples of questions I've had to answer:

1. Does it look like I've gained weight?

2. Take a look at what my daughter painted!

3. How was dinner?

My girlfriend asked the first question after she had been studying 24/7 for a month for final exams. No one on earth knows better than she does when she gains and loses weight. I'm sure she knew to the ounce what she weighed when she asked me that. I'll give you one guess what I told her.

My boss asked (stated?) the second question after she had just showed me a painting her 4-year-old did in school. Again, one guess!

A friend asked me the third question after he had made dinner for me because he knows my girlfriend is away and that I don't cook. Well, I found out that he doesn't either! But, that didn't make a damn bit of difference under the circumstances. If he were auditioning for Top Chef, my answer might have been different. But here, what was called for was absolutely clear. And just like in the other two examples, it was not brutal honesty!

I don't know whether to call it "choosing my words carefully" or "telling a white lie." If you want to be hyper-technical about it, I straight out lied to all of these people. But, things don't work IRL in such a hyper-technical way, right? Sometimes (almost always?) there's a lot more going on in a situation than simply the words being used. How NT-like of me! Seriously, context is really important. No one had a thing to gain by my being brutally honest in those situations; and a glossy response allowed both of us an escape from an uncomfortable situation. A situation, I'll point out, that I didn't create. And that's an important distinction, I think.

Here's where I draw the line. I will not compliment you unless I mean what I say. Insincere praise and gratuitous compliments are deceitful and manipulative. (See the many recent threads on PUAs here.) No one needs to resort to this kind of stuff because there's usually plenty to be genuinely complimentary of when you're dealing with friends. They're your friends for a reason, right? BUT, if you put me on the spot, then the rules change. Don't back me into a corner and hold me hostage until either I say what you want me to say, or I say something that upsets you.


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07 Jun 2011, 11:35 am

RainingRoses, i agree with using "white lies" in some contexts like that too, because they preserve a relationship and they are not based on trying to get someone to bend to your own aims or expectations. i mean, it's not like you are complimenting that drawing because you want free art for your walls, so the gain is in terms of the relationship beween the people involved. just like you said about having lots to be genuinely be complimentary when it comes to friends.

for myself, this is how i handle these kind of situations for the most part - i look for something positive. very few things in this world are uniformly bad in my eyes. this way i don't actually have to lie. so for example... maybe dinner had a good mix of spices, or perhaps an excellent presentation, or maybe it was so filling to eat.

or, that 4 year old may have drawn something beautiful in comparison to other little kids. or maybe there are lots of bright colours, or a good use of space, or an accurate representation of a dog.

i'm sure that you handled it similarly, those are just my examples of how i manage to not-lie, lol.


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