Are there any people her who follows pagan type religions?

Post Reply New Topic

I am someone who is christian, but i also follow some beliefs that are followed by wiccans and native Americans. I mostly follow Native American/christian beliefs since the only thing from wicca i follow is the belief in the 5th element of spirit, and that the earth is our mother which is also a Native American Belief. i am a Cherokee medicine man in training, basically what a medicine man is is we are (usually) descendents of shaman, who have rejected the practice of black magic by our forefathers, and only use magic to spread love and joy to others, See, i feel the difference between a white witch and a black witch is white witchs can use the power of god in our healing ceremonies,(again i am also christian), since all were doing is praying while using some things from nature to help increase the strength of our prayers. How wicca comes into play is native people only believe in the elements of earth, air water and fire(im not sure if it quite goes in that order), where wiccans have the 5th element of spirit, and i feel spirit is also an element, My specialty is using stones to heal, i believe stones have healing properties that can help balance the soul. my favorite mineral is quartz. Quartz is a very powerful stone in clearing the mind and boosting your awareness of your surroundings, its been said quartz promotes psychic awarness and is a direct link to spirits, although ive never seen the future while holding it. I would also like to note i hate the word PAGAN, i feel its demeaning, i believe that a proper term would be Spirit Religion .

Last edited by bradt4evr on 06 Jun 2011, 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

GACH!

So many beliefs ... so little evidence ...

I would like to note since im sure this is an argument waiting to happen that I know wiccans do not believe in god, they believe in several different gods. Native americans do believe in a god called the creator, and his son the great spirit. See the native legend goes that A man came down to the Native people named walkabout(if im not mistaken) and he taught us how we should stop eating one another(we were cannibals at the time) and learn to love one another, He taught us how to use plants to heal and he started the sundance ceremony. Before he left us he told us that he had other flock to tend to(something pretty much along those lines). We refer to this man as the great Spirit(yet his name was wallkabout? the elders werent always clear on their teachings lol) It is believed by many natives that he was referring to those who lived in israel etc, and he meant he was going to start christianity

Yes, our people, the Tsalagi, were very quick to adopt Christianity as they saw how it paralleled with what they had been taught by their forefathers.

Osiyo my friend! May you walk in balance.

Thank you kindly:)

Christianity and Wicca are mutually exclusive.
Christianity is a monotheistic religion which denies the belief in all other deities, where as Wicca is a hard-polytheistic priesthood.

Within Wicca the '5th element' is spirit, meaning their deities (referred to in outer-court teachings as Horned God and Great Mother Goddess) expressed as a pantheist belief - if you believed in this then this would mean you believed in their gods, not the Christian god. Wicca is a lot more than pantheism, many different pagan faiths believe in pantheism so not sure why you've specifically latched onto Wicca. Wicca is also oath-bound so with the exception of certain basics most of what Wicca believe are not known to those outside the priesthood, so unless you are initiated into Wicca you can't fully understand their beliefs.

I'm Pagan-atheist - there is nothing demeaning about the word Pagan, the proper term for a Pagan is...PAGAN.

Now remember i only said some, Really the only thing i follow from wicca is the element of spirit, and that the earth is our mother, but Native Americans also follow the same belief. I follow The native American spirituality much more than wicca, although i dlo find wicca very fascinating, but no, im not a true wiccan since i dont follow wicca entirely. You are right on what you are saying, i probaly should have been more clear when i was explaining my personal spiritual beliefs, sorry for the confusion and if you look i fixed my post to make it clear the element of spirit is the only thing i follow from wicca, thanks for bringing that up because im not always good at being specific on things and it can lead to a lot of confusion, and i guess the reason why i always thought pagan was demeaning is because it seems like a lot of people think or say pagan in a bad sense, as if pagans are beneath the christian church which i totally disagree with,

I got to say it - I can no other -

talking about the pre-European population of the Americas or even North America alone or even North America minus the Inuit as this monolithic PEOPLE is NO less absurd than talking about Africa or Europe or Asia as a unit.

They are peoples - highly diverse in physical culture, highly diverse in social structure, highly diverse in language [forget anything you may have heard Greenberg say] and by no means uniform in religion.

Cherokee is not Abnaki is not Navajo is by no means Tlingit.

Sorry, but you don't seem to understand this.

You don't believe in the gods that Wicca follow, therefore you do not believe in their idea of the 'the element of spirit' - Wicca also don't quite believe that 'the earth is our mother'. As I say, there's no reason for you to have latched onto their priesthood as an example, you could have just as easily said you like the idea of pantheism or Gia worship...which again, goes against Christianity. Wicca is a strangely specific path to mention, and you seem to misunderstand what it is they believe and what they actually are.

If people think of Pagans in a negative sense then that's their issue, no reason for us to change the name of our path.

Sorry i dont think im being precise ony my explanations, no i dont believe in pantheism, sorry i wrote that post at like 12 at night so my mind wasnt all there lol. I know it says a different time on my thing but thats because i didnt fix the time zone thing on my profile. . agan believing that spirit is an element is the only thing i really follow from pagan religions, i follow Native american spirituality and thats that, and really the spirit world is a big part of our spirituality and in some cases its just as important to call upon the spirits as it is to call upon the four winds and the elements, so that is why i like to believe spirit is an element, not because of wicca or any pantheistic religion, but the fact that i use it in my prayers just as much as i use the four elements, it has nothing to do with anything outside of the Native american spirituality. I understand you have to be a wiccan to really believe in element of spirit, but in our spirituality its a little different, Native American spirituality is really hard to explain because tribes practices in magic differs. and every family in particuliar and every medicine man has their own unique style of healing, and using the element of spirit, a belief thats taken out of other pagan beliefs, is what gives me my unique trait as a medicine man.No i dont follow any other spirituality besides native American, and nothing i practice is revent to that of anything else, but thank you for bringing up the word Pantheism it completely left my mind

I suspect your present course will lead to an unexpected place, and I suspect that will ultimately prove to be good.

Sorry, but you don't seem to understand this.

You don't believe in the gods that Wicca follow, therefore you do not believe in their idea of the 'the element of spirit' - Wicca also don't quite believe that 'the earth is our mother'. As I say, there's no reason for you to have latched onto their priesthood as an example, you could have just as easily said you like the idea of pantheism or Gia worship...which again, goes against Christianity. Wicca is a strangely specific path to mention, and you seem to misunderstand what it is they believe and what they actually are.

If people think of Pagans in a negative sense then that's their issue, no reason for us to change the name of our path.

As to Polytheism in Wicca:
This may be true for Gardinarian Paths but I have heard many self proclaimed Wiccans in respected positions disagree with this entirely. They have often recited Dion Fortune to me "All Gods are one God, all Goddesses are one Goddess."

At best they may be described as overall being duel-theists, though some have even gone so far as to claim that both deities are expressions of one much as the more recent Hindu offshoots have begun doing:

"These are sometimes considered to be separate beings, but other groups view them as two aspects of a single divine force."
-from the 'ehow' website, the 'wicca-religion' page

You are attempting to correct the OP, but your 'facts' are controversial. This strikes me as a case of understanding things a bit too literally which, I think, we are all often guilty of.

Dianic wiccans tend to emphasize the goddess. It's still far from Christianity, though; the dianic goddess is definitely female, while the Christian god is definitely male.

This is true of all paths of Wicca, not just Gardinarian.
Neo-wicca are soft-polytheists, however Wicca are firmly hard-polytheists.

There's no such thing as 'self-proclaimed' Wicca, it's like saying some random guy on the street calling himself a Catholic Priest should have a say on what the Catholic Church should believe. Wicca is defined by it's members, not by people who claim to be part of the priesthood without following or even knowing the beliefs, practices, doctrines, or mysteries that Wicca follow. A person proclaiming themselves to be Wicca doesn't get to dictate the beliefs of Wicca, what they believe doesn't change what Wicca believe.

The problem is that, at least in the States, there is no hard priesthood for this religion (outside of, perhaps, Gardnerian lines). Considering it only dates back to 1951 it would make sense that clearly defined authorities haven't had time to become entrenched in the religion.

In fact, even since then, many of its official doctrines have been subject to change as the religion evolved. If you look at the original explanation for the "Harm None" doctrine, it was not a hard and fast law (and has evolved into being perceived as more of one):

"[L] In the olden days when we had power, we could use our Arts against any who ill-treated any of the Brotherhood, but in these evil times, we may not do so, for our enemies have devised a burning "
-Gardnerian Book of Shadows, The Old Laws

Moreover, as mentioned earlier, Dianic's are officially Wiccans with legalized priesthood (as I said, here in the states) and they often only worship the one god. Some sects even go so far as to see the "God" as an expression of another part of their "Goddess".

You seem to be concentrating on my use of the words 'self-proclaimed' but I admit I cannot guess why. While it is true that not all self-proclaimed Wiccans are legally recognized clergy, it is true that all legally recognized clergy are self-proclaimed Wiccans. And since this is not a centralized religion (see: The Vatican) there is also no central authority to decide what is and is not official doctrine. Therefore I can not see how there can be any official differentiation between your said categories of neo-wicca and Wicca other than that of personal taste.

And even if there is this differentiation, I likewise can't understand why the original poster would need be corrected for his use of the word "wicca" in reference to his religion - as even if he were ascribing to that neo type doctrine, it is not cultural practice for those who belong to the neo-wiccan offshoots to refer to themselves as "neo-wiccan" only.

*blinks* Wicca IS a priesthood, technically speaking as there are no laypeople within Wicca it's not a religion.
This is true no matter what country, within the US you have the problem that a few people broke oaths and created their own path that they claimed was Wicca - however without initiation no one can confirm how it differs from Wicca, although those who are Wicca agree that it is a different path that doesn't share the same beliefs, practices or doctrines - i.e. it's not Wicca, it's referred to as Neo-wicca.



The Reed has never been seen as a hard and fast rule, it's also not 'harm none' the line is "An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will" which most see as being 'as long as you harm none, do as you will' which is an expression more of cause and effect or karma (Wicca being influenced by Eastern philosophy). The Reed tends to be taught to Seekers and those in training as part of outer-court teaching until initiated to 1st degree, it's guideline to explain ethics - doctrine, not dogma. Ethical and moral issues are never as simple as 'harm none'.

"[Witches] are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol, "Do what you like so long as you harm no one". But they believe a certain law to be important, "You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm."
Gerald Gardner, The Meaning of Witchcraft, p 127 in the 1982 and 1999 printings



Legalized priesthood (in the US) doesn't mean they're 'officially Wicca'.
There is a branch of Dianic Wicca who are Wicca, they are of Gardnerian lineage if I remember rightly, couldn't comment any more on their legitimacy, and if they are Wicca then how they define their deity would not be known to me or any non-Wicca.



I am concentrating on your use of the words 'self-proclaimed' because this implies 'self-initiated'.
This means someone who has called themselves Wicca despite not being a member of the Wicca nor following anything that would define them as being Wicca - it's offensive and it perpetuates ignorance towards Wicca. It's the difference between someone who is Wicca and someone who claims the title without being a member of the priesthood.

Wicca is an orthopraxic religion: it is defined by the practices of its members.
Not all Wiccans necessarily believe all the same things, but they all share certain core practices...and those are defined by Wicca, not Neo-Wicca and not anyone else...no one but Wicca themselves should have a say on what Wicca believe or practice.



Wicca is a specific religion, if he doesn't follow said specific religion...then that's reason to correct that point. Neo-wicca do refer to themselves as Neo-wicca - there are those who don't out of ignorance, prejudice or fad, but it's an accepted term that is used. There has to be a distinction made between Wicca and Neo-wicca because they are two vastly different paths, it's the same as why it's no good saying 'I follow Christianity' when actually your beliefs are that of a Muslim - we use specific terms for specific things within language to allow us to communicate. Terms lose their meaning, we lose the ability for effective communication.