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Zeno
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25 Jan 2012, 9:21 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok first of riots and protests are not the same thing and since I was discussing protests I will stick to that topic. Also, did you read anything I posted I already said I do not think the protests will make things 'better' it's too late for things to get better in this country or so it seems so chances are it has to get worse before it gets better. But I also don't see what harm its doing.

Also there are lots of alternatives to capitalism, but people are blind also I do not think most of the protestors veiw corporate america as 'the good life.' so its not jealousy at all. Its more like a small group of individuals referred to as the 1%(maybe that is not the exact percentage but its what that refers to) own or control most of the worlds wealth and resources. what is so wrong about protesting against things like that.....a large majority of people are being exploited by this screwed up system and so they have every reason to protest.

I know my reason for going to the Occupy march I went to was certainly nothing like throwing a tantrum because mommy and daddy will not buy the latest game boy..........that's about the stupidest comparison I've ever seen and only proves you have no clue what you're talking about.


Lay off the personal attacks. At 22 you are no longer a child and should know better.



Sweetleaf
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25 Jan 2012, 9:37 pm

Zeno wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Ok first of riots and protests are not the same thing and since I was discussing protests I will stick to that topic. Also, did you read anything I posted I already said I do not think the protests will make things 'better' it's too late for things to get better in this country or so it seems so chances are it has to get worse before it gets better. But I also don't see what harm its doing.

Also there are lots of alternatives to capitalism, but people are blind also I do not think most of the protestors veiw corporate america as 'the good life.' so its not jealousy at all. Its more like a small group of individuals referred to as the 1%(maybe that is not the exact percentage but its what that refers to) own or control most of the worlds wealth and resources. what is so wrong about protesting against things like that.....a large majority of people are being exploited by this screwed up system and so they have every reason to protest.

I know my reason for going to the Occupy march I went to was certainly nothing like throwing a tantrum because mommy and daddy will not buy the latest game boy..........that's about the stupidest comparison I've ever seen and only proves you have no clue what you're talking about.


Lay off the personal attacks. At 22 you are no longer a child and should know better.


What personal attacks did you get out of that? I disagreed with your generalization of the occupy protestors in a semi-aggressive manner because your initial comment was insulting......how is that a personal attack?


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Sunshine7
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26 Jan 2012, 2:32 pm

Quote:
Its more like a small group of individuals referred to as the 1%(maybe that is not the exact percentage but its what that refers to) own or control most of the worlds wealth and resources. what is so wrong about protesting against things like that.....a large majority of people are being exploited by this screwed up system and so they have every reason to protest.


There will always be a small group of individuals who are richer than the rest. Reaching completely equal, or even somewhat equal, distribution of income, is a fool's errand.

You'll have to explain "exploiting" though. That's a new one.

While I respect the right of OWS folks to protest, they don't seem to be achieving anything. Seriously, somebody tell me what on earth they want.



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26 Jan 2012, 4:53 pm

Sunshine7 wrote:
Quote:
Its more like a small group of individuals referred to as the 1%(maybe that is not the exact percentage but its what that refers to) own or control most of the worlds wealth and resources. what is so wrong about protesting against things like that.....a large majority of people are being exploited by this screwed up system and so they have every reason to protest.


There will always be a small group of individuals who are richer than the rest. Reaching completely equal, or even somewhat equal, distribution of income, is a fool's errand.

You'll have to explain "exploiting" though. That's a new one.

While I respect the right of OWS folks to protest, they don't seem to be achieving anything. Seriously, somebody tell me what on earth they want.


I think the occupy movement represents the frustration towards a system designed to screw most people over while serving the interests of a few. Also, there does not have to be such a system in existence, people have just been conditioned to believe that.


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OliveOilMom
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26 Jan 2012, 5:26 pm

When the riots begin, I will be in my house with enough food and water and medicine for my family for a year, with means to defend ourselves.

The question is, where will you be?


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27 Jan 2012, 3:37 pm

Quote:
I think the occupy movement represents the frustration towards a system designed to screw most people over while serving the interests of a few. Also, there does not have to be such a system in existence, people have just been conditioned to believe that.


The rich have it better materialistically speaking - that's not new.

"The system", as many protestors like to rage against, was not designed by any single person or entity. "The system" is not a monster you can find a knight in shining armour to slay, because the system is everybody in it. You're not wrong to say that it's unfair, but well, nobody expects a perfectly fair system, or even a meaningfully fair system. "That's not fair!" sounds like something you'd hear at a playground.

The reason why people like to hate on the OWS is because the haters tend to be people who, faced with the exact situation and exact same "system", take matters into their own hands and do something about it, even if it's a desperate uphill battle. OWS protests against what they see as an inherent structural problem on a broader scale that no individual can take on himself. While the protestors may be right - nobody can control the ebb and flow of the global economy - it doesn't come as a surprise that the course of action taken by the haters is the more productive one. You won't pay off your student loans by protesting, you won't put food on the table, make rent, pay the bills by protesting. You can spread a lot of positive externalities (is there such a thing?), yes, such as awareness and such - but man's gotta eat.



psych
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27 Jan 2012, 3:51 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
When the riots begin, I will be in my house with enough food and water and medicine for my family for a year, with means to defend ourselves.

The question is, where will you be?


Ill be in the starving mob breaking into your house.

you just broke the survivalists code :lol:



Sweetleaf
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27 Jan 2012, 3:53 pm

Sunshine7 wrote:
Quote:
I think the occupy movement represents the frustration towards a system designed to screw most people over while serving the interests of a few. Also, there does not have to be such a system in existence, people have just been conditioned to believe that.


The rich have it better materialistically speaking - that's not new.

"The system", as many protestors like to rage against, was not designed by any single person or entity. "The system" is not a monster you can find a knight in shining armour to slay, because the system is everybody in it. You're not wrong to say that it's unfair, but well, nobody expects a perfectly fair system, or even a meaningfully fair system. "That's not fair!" sounds like something you'd hear at a playground.

As far as I can tell they aren't saying it was designed by a single person, and I think there is a lot more to it then 'that's not fair.' more like its very wrong the way the system works and things need to change. Also why don't people expect a more fair system? See thats an issue I see so many people seem to have the attitude you're naive and immature if you're not willing to just accept that our government/economic system sucks and just go along with it.

And you're right 'the system' is not a monster more like the meat grinder in The Wall, if you've ever seen that.


The reason why people like to hate on the OWS is because the haters tend to be people who, faced with the exact situation and exact same "system", take matters into their own hands and do something about it, even if it's a desperate uphill battle. OWS protests against what they see as an inherent structural problem on a broader scale that no individual can take on himself. While the protestors may be right - nobody can control the ebb and flow of the global economy - it doesn't come as a surprise that the course of action taken by the haters is the more productive one. You won't pay off your student loans by protesting, you won't put food on the table, make rent, pay the bills by protesting. You can spread a lot of positive externalities (is there such a thing?), yes, such as awareness and such - but man's gotta eat.


Also what do you mean by taking matters into their own hands and doing something about it? that is what the protestors are doing they are trying to raise awareness and stand up to corporate america to let them know we're sick of the crap. Going and getting a job and finally giving in to a screwed up system just to make ends meet and pay off debt is not doing something about it that's just allowing the same crap to continue. I am not attacking people who work, and I will probably even have to find some work myself to afford food and such but at the same time I am still going to openly oppose corporate america and the corrupt politicians involved, protest if i so choose and try and find ways to get involved with changing things for the better. So yes a man's gotta eat, but a man's gotta do a lot more then eat to enjoy life(lol or women, or mixed gender whatever).


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Sunshine7
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27 Jan 2012, 4:06 pm

Quote:
See thats an issue I see so many people seem to have the attitude you're naive and immature if you're not willing to just accept that our government/economic system sucks and just go along with it.


That's people man. Can't be helped.

Quote:
I think there is a lot more to it then 'that's not fair.' more like its very wrong the way the system works and things need to change.


I'm not disagreeing with you (but I might later), but over and over again I hear the same rhetoric of "it's all crap/wrong/exploitation etc." Ok, so you decide to accuse somebody in court, that's fine. Evidence? You can scream "guilty" until you're blue in the face but without presenting any actionable charges, nothing happens.

I know this is kind of an impossible charge, because no lay person is going to have the resources to mount up any kind of actionable evidence. The point is not to actually build up a case, it's to evaluate if the kind of society you live in really "sucks". Hating corporations is typically a national pastime of developed nations, because they've got no richer nations left to hate. Place a map on the wall, throw 5 darts at it at random, and see if you'd rather live in that society than yours (welll...chances are they'd land in the ocean, or Russia).



Sweetleaf
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27 Jan 2012, 4:11 pm

Sunshine7 wrote:
Quote:
See thats an issue I see so many people seem to have the attitude you're naive and immature if you're not willing to just accept that our government/economic system sucks and just go along with it.


That's people man. Can't be helped.

Quote:
I think there is a lot more to it then 'that's not fair.' more like its very wrong the way the system works and things need to change.


I'm not disagreeing with you (but I might later), but over and over again I hear the same rhetoric of "it's all crap/wrong/exploitation etc." Ok, so you decide to accuse somebody in court, that's fine. Evidence? You can scream "guilty" until you're blue in the face but without presenting any actionable charges, nothing happens.

I know this is kind of an impossible charge, because no lay person is going to have the resources to mount up any kind of actionable evidence. The point is not to actually build up a case, it's to evaluate if the kind of society you live in really "sucks". Hating corporations is typically a national pastime of developed nations, because they've got no richer nations left to hate. Place a map on the wall, throw 5 darts at it at random, and see if you'd rather live in that society than yours (welll...chances are they'd land in the ocean, or Russia).


See the thing is there is lots of evidence for all those complaints......its not just rhetoric.


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Sunshine7
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27 Jan 2012, 4:13 pm

^dude, come on. Don't say "lot's of evidence" and leave it hanging.



androbot2084
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27 Jan 2012, 4:26 pm

Occupy wall street will be a make love not war communist revolution.



Sweetleaf
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27 Jan 2012, 4:58 pm

Sunshine7 wrote:
^dude, come on. Don't say "lot's of evidence" and leave it hanging.


well maybe when I have more time I can get back to it, but it would take hours to explain and provide reliable links to sources for all the things wrong with our economic/political system and quite frankly I don't think enough people here care to read a post of that length by me.


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OliveOilMom
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27 Jan 2012, 5:00 pm

psych wrote:
OliveOilMom wrote:
When the riots begin, I will be in my house with enough food and water and medicine for my family for a year, with means to defend ourselves.

The question is, where will you be?


Ill be in the starving mob breaking into your house.

you just broke the survivalists code :lol:


Oh, nobody on here knows exactly where I live. Trust me, people around here do not know how prepped we are.


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marshall
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27 Jan 2012, 5:09 pm

I don't think all the Occupy protesters are for eliminating free-enterprise. There are legitimate grievances to be had with how the major banks operated and continue to operate. It's no just things that are seen as wrong but not currently illegal, there's actually evidence of illegal activity that nobody has yet challenged. Then there's the issue of our corrupt crony-capitalist government. A lot of people are fed up with not having a voice in our government due to the corporate funded two party stranglehold that completely dominates our political system.

Also, the claim that seeking employment is "doing something" while protesting is "whining" is a bit off. Consider the fact that the majority of protesters are in fact employed. Also, if there is a structural issue with employment in the economy, one person's gain is another person's loss. Simply telling people to compete harder for a limited number of bread crumbs does nothing. If you say that then all you're doing is advocating social darwinism. It seems a lot of Americans can't get past looking at everything through the eyes of the "individual". Is the existence of a complex economic system that can be skewed by certain forces beyond any one individual really beyond people's comprehension?