Having a conversation

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Our youngest is three and a half, somewhere on the spectrum, and goes to school four days a week (where he does get speech and OT). He's very smart, an infuriatingly good problem-solver, and has a pretty extensive vocabulary. He knows his numbers, he knows his letters, and he can and will follow fairly complex instructions without any trouble or hesitation.

But he's not talking. Youngest does a lot of echoing ("Nick Junior, on demand!" spoken in the most dramatic voice possible) , and a LOT of babble/jargon, but the only time that he'll consistently use language is when I point out something in a book to him ("Doggie!"), or when he wants something ("Drink, please!") -- he's very good about asking for things, and he's been saying NO to things that he doesn't approve of for some time now. Oh, and bossing his Big Brother around. He's REALLY good at that. "Shoes on! Shoes on! Time school, Brother!"

So he knows the words...but it's impossible to have a conversation with him. I ask him how his day was, and he'll just say "Bus today," if he went to school. And then he'll tell me that he got a happy face, because that's what his brother tells me when I get home from work. A lot of the time he defaults to shrieking if he's not happy, and reasoning with him -- like this morning's insistence on wearing his winter coat, despite the 90 degree weather -- is next to impossible.

Apparently, he's a dream at school. Does what he's asked, participates, knows all the other kids names, shares toys and deals with transitions without any problems...but at home, there's shrieking, and fighting, and refusing to share with his brother at all. Right now, I'm working on just getting him to stop throwing things, but he clearly sees it as a fun game, even as I grow increasingly frustrated.

I don't think that there's an *answer* for this, per se, other than time. But I would like to hear how and if other parents have dealt with this issue. I need to, and soon will, meet with his teachers and talk to them about this stuff, but in the meantime any ideas at all would be appreciated

Hi,

My daughter was diagnosed at three and a half, that's how she talked then - now at 12, she has an excellent vocabulary and converses very well and I am confident she will continue to improve. This was a gradual process but it came none the less.
I'd adopt a view of patience and less worry for your own piece of mind, after all he is getting constant exposure to conversation both at home and in school.

As for the tyrant behavior...well, he is three after all, notorious tyrants autism or not. My daughter did not throw things but had tantrums due to frustration at not being able to express her needs and wants. These faded away as her talking improved and she could get her thoughts out but also since I understood this was why she did it I paid close attention to find the problem, and then try to get her to say it in words. Like "Do you want the dress?" and then " I want the dress" - usually I'd be happy with getting "want dress" or even just "dress".

Also, I think you need some kind of consistent phrase that he can associate with a certain behavior.
For my daughter, at the beginning of a tantrum I would say "Wait! No drama!" I said it every time while at the same time trying to what the need/want was. She came to associate that phase with trantruming and it would often shut her off like a faucet while I tried to solve the problem. I didn't do this on purpose but it worked and later on, a new teacher that was having some issues with this in class saw me do it and it worked for her too. My daughter just came to understand that this meant "Get a grip".

So think of something short and sweet for a type of behavior. Say it but don't go on and on with all kinds of detailed explanations or whatever. Oh, and it should be something that you can easily use in public - so not silly sounding, too harsh, or too embarrassing - because you might need it for some years to come. Just keep it simple, like "No bullying" or whatever fits best.

Hope I could help, Sz

my step-son used to do that too. well, he still does and he's 6. he is a bit better but he still only has two answers to me asking about how school went. one is 'i had a good fun day.' he says even when the teacher has phoned and i know he hasn't had a good fun day...lol. the other response is to crinkle his face up and a make a scared/whining/cry/squeal noise at me. when he does that i have no idea why he thinks that's even an answer but i do know that means it's time to go for some quiet time in his room. he never gives me specifics of what happened during the day unless i try and try and try to get info from him which i don't usually do. it's much easier to ask me 4yo. he usually knows.

My 12yr old now may be able to pluck a tidbit from the day to share however it's not of great interest to her and frankly it's not of great interest to ME to discuss my day - after all, I've already lived it and have little interest in coughing up some details for the sake of chit chat.

And I've read that "What did you do at school today?" or "How was your day?" are way too broad for alot of kids on the spectrum. They cannot identify the salient points that might be conversation worthy and often find such chatter boring anyway. But at 3 1/2 this is expecting at bit much anyway. Work on conversations dealing with subjects that are actually of interest to him. Hey, maybe the bus IS the interesting part to him.

i will point out the obvious, which is the diagnostic criteria present in classic autism: in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others.

the echoing is just common echolalia. often its because of that inability to sustain conversation. they will tend to use scripts that they pick up various places instead of coming up with their own words. you can work with him to give him more scripts, sometimes that can be a way for them to share more detailed information without having to be a conversationalist.

my youngest was much as you describe at that age, bright, learns easily, participates at school, but didnt talk much at all. he has since been diagnosed with classic autism. he is MUCH more verbal now, 2 years later, but still cannot make random conversation. my SO, at 39 and also now diagnosed classic autism, is the same way. small talk doesnt exist in either of their worlds. they can answer questions, altho usually its short and to the point, but they simply cant make conversation in the typical way. if you get them talking about a special interest, they can talk your ear off and not notice when your eyes glaze over in boredom, but ask them how they feel about the weather and all they say is "fine."

with our son, we just let him be as he is. i always talk to him, but i dont expect him to give as much back. he is incredibly insightful for 5 yo tho, and he will sometimes say things to me that amaze me with their depth, but even those are usually one line statements about something hes been thinking about, and its not really a back and forth conversation. his language really has taken off in the past 2 years, and he talks ALL THE TIME with his brother when they play. but he just doesnt do the small talk, and after knowing his father for 12 years, i doubt my son ever will learn that particular skill.

Conversation can still be difficult for me at times and I'm 28.

One of the things that I tell people is that I can't handle qualitative questions and I need quantitative questions. An example of that:

How was your day? VS. What did you do today?

I can answer the latter question with ease but the former question makes me confused. So, I would suggest trying to have a conversation about things instead of feelings.

Rolzup - I am right there with you. Sometimes when I finally stumble upon the thing that will resolve the current crisis I look back and think "How obvious, I should have realized he was worried about the rain" (or whatever the concern of the moment is). I find myself stuck in a pattern thinking "today is just like every other day" then DS has a meltdown about something that seems so out of the blue. It is NOT like every other day for him, something is wrong and I go through this guessing game about what it might be. It seems we are asked to continually be more and more creative problem solvers. I don't know about anyone else but sometimes I feel like my brain is just tapped out and I can't think of one more possible solution. I just stand there sometimes with this totally dumb-founded feeling wondering what in the heck I should do.

Its good that he is answering when you ask how school was. That is actually sort of a vague question. My daughter is classic autistic but she is now, at 6 years old, high functioning. She is at a higher level academically than the typical kids she is in school with but if I asked her "How was school?" she would not be able to answer. I have to lead her with questions like "Did you have fun at school today?" or "Did you play with your friend ____ today?" something like that. Even those questions are difficult. She knows a lot of words but being able to put them together and answer you or....have a conversation, can be very difficult for our kids. Sometimes its even difficult as an aspie to have a conversation. Its very typical for them to be at a higher level academically but at a much lower level socially. Also my daughter also does a bit better at school too because she really tries hard so when she comes home she is pretty spent. I can tell when she has a really stressful day at school by her mood at home. Also the "bossing" is very typical....Autistic children are very strict about rules and schedule, it makes them feel more at ease and safe.
azurecrayon put up a good post with a lot of good points. Also your pointing out that no two kids are alike, that is very true. Whatever the case pushing our kids or getting angry with them when they are trying to communicate or simply just cant is never going to be a good thing. I just love my daughter the way she is and I try to help her where I can. I dont care if she cant tell me how school was right now, in the grand scheme of things its really not all that important. Its kind of like that question "how are you today?".....fine!