How come Donna Williams has a low IQ?

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claudia
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22 Jun 2011, 6:19 am

Ettina wrote:
Given the severe sensory problems she describes, I can imagine her having a lot of trouble understanding the verbal questions and processing the visual input for the nonverbal ones. Her receptive skills sound very shaky, both verbal and nonverbal, meanwhile her expressive skills seem a lot better.


I think you're right. Visual and verbal comprehension are supposed to be intelligence indicators, but autistic people show that it's not true. Someone who is capable to become an author and sell her books is intelligent, in my opinion. I have not so much to say to be capable to write a book, for example, but my IQ is above average.
IQ should depend on problem solving capability and not on someone's ability to understand a given type of communication.
I'm sure that my IQ score is lower if I take the test in english instead of italian...
Of course I'm assuming that intelligence is defined as problem solving capability but I woder if there's a shared definition of intelligence.
Someone knows it?



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10 Jul 2011, 9:41 pm

Well if she is the dumb dumb that you claim that she is which is a major faux pas around here it's up there with letting a stinky egg fart lose in the presence of the Queen or heaven forbid dish up a vegan meal to the food Nazi Gordan Ramsay (only highly intelligent and or preferably good looking people get attention around here) anyway I'm rambling I think she be applauded for getting on with life despite her limitations in life.

Take W as an example a chicken hawk C grade average student went on to become the president of the greatest and richest (or is it both I can never tell especially so with the weak American dollar) nation in the universe .

How could such a low being become the leader of the free world you ask ?special talents he was able to tap in to his "folksy' which is the sort of BS stuff Americans go for.

Because mocking a women on death row is considered "folksy" right ? giving clemency to a mentally ill adult male with a IQ the size of a shoe that would not be folksy ether ? and lets not forget under his watch ...

Set record for most executions by any governor in American history now that's folksy!


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animalcrackers
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10 Jul 2011, 10:01 pm

Full scale IQ doesn't show strong abilities and major weaknesses. Folks with ASDs tend to score all over the place....strengths, specific skills can make up for weaknesses, and I hazard a guess that the lowest scores a person gets on an IQ test bring down the highest ones (although I know nothing about the math involved in scoring these things).



AlexWelshman
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24 Jul 2011, 3:14 pm

aussiebloke wrote:
Well if she is the dumb dumb that you claim that she is which is a major faux pas around here it's up there with letting a stinky egg fart lose in the presence of the Queen or heaven forbid dish up a vegan meal to the food Nazi Gordan Ramsay (only highly intelligent and or preferably good looking people get attention around here) anyway I'm rambling I think she be applauded for getting on with life despite her limitations in life.
I'm not claiming she's adumbdumb at all. She's really clever! Just because you've got a low IW, it doesn't mean your not intelegent. Autistic people often do score lower ecause of their difficulties.



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25 Jul 2011, 12:22 am

People on the spectrum tend to do better on some IQ tests than others for some reason. For instance I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Aspies tend to score higher on the Raven's progressives matrices test than they would on other tests. IQ tests are relatively unreliable anyway (what are they really measuring?) and the verbal difficulties in autism would inhibit people's ability of perform well in language-rich forms of IQ test.


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25 Jul 2011, 12:29 am

I do not do as well as I should do on IQ tests because they are geared primarily towards maths, and I happen to also have number blindness, less commonly known as dyscalculia but excel with words since I read so much when I can...

I still manage to get around IQ:120 though, but if they were changed to put not a disproportionate amount of emphasis on numbers I could probably get upwards of 140...

I think it is time those IQ tests were scrapped, they are pretty much worthless and the smartest person in the world could have all the self-possession and common sense of a spent roll of sellotape.

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25 Jul 2011, 10:49 am

Sparhawke wrote:
I do not do as well as I should do on IQ tests because they are geared primarily towards maths, and I happen to also have number blindness, less commonly known as dyscalculia but excel with words since I read so much when I can...

I still manage to get around IQ:120 though, but if they were changed to put not a disproportionate amount of emphasis on numbers I could probably get upwards of 140

Agreed. When I was in the military, I got a really high score on the army intelligence test. I was accused of cheating, which was really impossible given the type of questions, the size of the room, and the distance between the people taking the test. :evil:


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08 Sep 2011, 7:30 am

"How do they perform on intelligence tests?

No formal tests resulting in I.Q. or other quantitative scores were conducted because of the problems in communication with the children, and their unwillingness or inability to direct attention to the test administrator and perform requested tasks. Instead, selected subtests were used to examine, observe, the children's modes of problem-solving and other aspects of their personalities and disorders. It was observed they did best on tasks that allowed spontaneous production (as opposed to following instructions), in particular on problems that require one to recognize and think in abstract concepts, such as problems that ask for the difference between for instance a ladder and stairs. On the whole they appeared to be abstract thinkers by nature, and the quality of their spontaneous production in some cases revealed they were years ahead of their biological age, despite poor school performance.

Also, they displayed a remarkable originality in thinking and experiencing; In the best cases this originality bordered on genius, in less able subjects it was deviant rather than original, far removed from reality and without much relevance or value.

It too became clear that the children were not inclined to accept knowledge from adults, teachers, to learn and automate skills according to instruction. They could only be original. As a result, a possible I.Q. based on their (good) performance on logical-abstract tests would overstate their school performance. To obtain a balanced impression of their functioning, it was necessary to also take their learning skills, mode of working, concentration and distractibility into account.

Asperger explains that the personality of the child has to be considered when conducting tests, so that for instance fearful, inhibited children are encouraged, helped, and over-talkative, noisy, busy children are kept tight and forced to get down to business.

As a general observation, Asperger says one can not assess each aspect of the personality in isolation, as they influence each other such that the whole is more than the sum of parts, and one therefore has to observe them in combination in the individual, not in a formal test situation but in the individual's own environment and daily activities.



Comment

Although no I.Q.s or other quantitative scores result from the tests, it is clear from Asperger's description of the test administrations that the children would have scored quite low I.Q.s, had the tests been conducted in a formal, objective, standardized way, without taking the problems in communication and attention into account. In particular, the children with apparently good capabilities of logic and abstract thinking would have scored lower than one would guess from their spontaneous production. Here one sees at work how the Aspergoid condition depresses psychometric intelligence when tests are conducted objectively and in the standardized way (so, in the only good way).

However, if the test procedure is forgiving with regard to these individuals' problems in attention and communication, and if only the types of tests at which they do best are used, the resulting scores will be elevated compared to their true level of functioning, their general intelligence. Intelligence is a very large factor in real-life functioning, but it is not the whole story, and Asperger is probably right that one must observe the integral personality, of which intelligence is only one important aspect.

Nowadays in the world of "giftedness" one often hears the notion of "Asperger is really giftedness turned into a disorder", implying that the diagnosis is incorrectly given to children who really are highly intelligent, and that the symptoms of Asperger Syndrome are really the features of "giftedness". This notion is of course popular with the parents of diagnosed children. But although some Aspergoid children are indeed intelligent, this does not make their handicap less serious. And the real confusion may lie in cases where the child's inclination to abstract logical thinking causes one to deem it "gifted" while this is not the case. One-sided abstract-logical tests tend to overstate the general intelligence of some Aspergoid persons. Finally, given the conspicuous nature of the Aspergoid condition, it seems unlikely that truly intelligent but otherwise normal children would be incorrectly diagnosed".

-Paul Cooijmans

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Hidden Smarts: Abstract thought trumps IQ scores in autism
Bruce Bower

There's more to the intelligence of autistic people than meets the IQ. Unlike most individuals, children and adults diagnosed as autistic often score much higher on a challenging, nonverbal test of abstract reasoning than they do on a standard IQ test, say psychologist Laurent Mottron of Hôpital Rivière-des-Prairies in Montreal and his colleagues.

The same autistic individuals who score near or below the IQ cutoff for "low functioning" or "mental retardation" achieve average or even superior scores on a test that taps a person's ability to infer rules and to think abstractly about geometric patterns, Mottron's team reports in the August Psychological Science.

"Intelligence has been underestimated in autistics," Mottron says. Autistic people solve problems and deploy neural resources in unusual ways, which are poorly understood and might contribute to problems with IQ tests, he asserts.

Mottron regards autism as a variant of healthy neural development. For that reason, his group—including study coauthor Michelle Dawson, herself diagnosed as autistic—prefers the term "autistic" to "person with autism."

The researchers studied 38 autistic children, ages 7 to 16; 13 autistic adults, ages 16 to 43; 24 nonautistic children, ages 6 to 16; and 19 nonautistic adults, ages 19 to 32.

Volunteers completed an age-appropriate IQ test and a Raven's Progressive Matrices test. The latter test includes 60 items, each consisting of a series of related geometric designs and a choice of six or eight alternative designs, one of which completes the series.

The nonautistic children and adults scored slightly above the population average on both tests.

In contrast, autistic kids and adults scored far higher on the Raven's test than they did on the IQ tests. These youngsters' average IQ was substantially below the population average, but their average score on the Raven's test was in the normal range.

One-third of autistic children qualified as "low functioning" by IQ, but only 5 percent did so by Raven's scores. Moreover, another third of the autistic children achieved "high intelligence" on the Raven's test.

As in previous research, autistic volunteers performed well on an IQ task that required them to reproduce geometric designs using colored blocks.

The new findings confirm prior indications that autistics score poorly on IQ tests despite processing perceptual information well, comments psychologist Uta Frith of University College London. In a 2000 study, Frith's team noted that autistic and nonautistic children made equally rapid and accurate visual judgments, such as discerning which of two lines was longer.

In people with autism, a lack of social insight derails the ability to acquire skills and information from others, a key to IQ success, Frith theorizes. Autistics thus succeed only on self-explanatory tasks, such as the Raven's test.

The Raven's test may measure autistic intelligence better than an IQ test does, adds psychologist Helen Tager-Flusberg of Boston University. Nonetheless, many autistic children are extremely impaired intellectually, she says.

Researchers generally sell short the unique features of autistic intelligence, Dawson responds. For example, autistics shift flexibly back and forth between focusing on details of a scene or its overall configuration, whereas nonautistics single-mindedly concentrate on the big picture, she says.

For those of you who do not subscribe, this comes from the "Schafer Report." It is a great email and really we should all be subscribing as it has incredible information regarding things that pertain to our kids.

Although... often also has some eally nasty and even defamatory comments towards autistic self-advocates. In fact, the Schafer report once posted that one of the researchers who worked on the study just described, could not possibly be autistic, accused autistic people who could do public speaking of not being autistic, and accused this researcher of having borderline personality disorder and of being a journalist rather than a real autism researcher. [QUOTE=fred]
So, I guess I'm asking, what's the point of this? How can we make use of this data?

[/QUOTE]

To me, the point is that most parents needlessly freak when their ASD kid is given an IQ test and he scores so very low. If we parents understand that our kids do know a lot but have difficulty communicating it, then we will not stand for the "low intelligence" BS many of us are handed. To me, the point is that when a child is put in a "low intelligence" category, he is not supported or encouraged in his abilities. Nothing is inherently "wrong" about an MR diagnosis, but in the case of ASD kids, it is more than likely, false, and it implies a cap of aptitude.

I see reports like this not as coddling ASD kids, or as making excuses, but as education for parents and for people who work with our kids. To help us all better understand how autism works. We, as a culture, have changed our thinking about a whole host of "disorders" including cerebral palsy, femaleness, left handedness, non-white skin tone, etc. etc. "Society" does indeed change its attitude over time and because of reports like this one.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is the link:

The same test has been used for a long time to be fair to people from different cultures and languages. It's no different here.
Thanks for sharing the article.

I'm not sure how my son would perform on the Raven, but I'm all for research that chips away at the "autistics are almost always ret*d myth". My son got a mild retardation diagnosis that we disagree with, because he was basically untestable at the time, too unfocused and unwilling to really show what he is capable of.

Since this topic touched on the subject of autistic strengths, I'll re-post my previous links on this subject:

---------------------------------------------------

Autistic Strengths reviewed for the workplace:

At its best, autism can offer these strengths:
strong conceptualization skill
(able to mentally model complex systems, may develop instinctive understanding of the system from this internalized model)
logical thinking
(strong skills in technical research or computer programming)
exceptional memory
attention to detail
(can identify inconsistencies in processes or communications)
honest, straightforward
(can treat people fairly)
intense focus
willing and able to learn great depth of information in specific field
<end excerpt>

I think the Raven shows the POTENTIAL our kids have and that is something we shouldn't ignore. It also shows the difference between what our kids' functioning level is versus what their potential is. That shows academic deficits in my opinion and can be used against school professionals who say that a childs' ASD is not impacting their education. You would have to use this with something like the Vineland in order to measure their level of functioning in daily life to make the comparison. As far as the Schafer report goes - I agree with gtto. I subscribed when it was free, but when it went to $35 a year - I stopped it. I would wade through to find articles that I thought were of interest (which was sometimes difficult) and I ignored all the ones that I thought were controversial and wrong. But, I would not pay for that! Just my opinion, though...

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08 Sep 2011, 3:25 pm

Quote:
At its best, autism can offer these strengths:
strong conceptualization skill
(able to mentally model complex systems, may develop instinctive understanding of the system from this internalized model)
logical thinking
(strong skills in technical research or computer programming)
exceptional memory
attention to detail
(can identify inconsistencies in processes or communications)
honest, straightforward
(can treat people fairly)
intense focus
willing and able to learn great depth of information in specific field
<end excerpt> :o


*sigh*

Seriously, what's the obsession with Aspies being good at "technology and computers?"


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AlexWelshman
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08 Sep 2011, 3:52 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Quote:
At its best, autism can offer these strengths:
strong conceptualization skill
(able to mentally model complex systems, may develop instinctive understanding of the system from this internalized model)
logical thinking
(strong skills in technical research or computer programming)
exceptional memory
attention to detail
(can identify inconsistencies in processes or communications)
honest, straightforward
(can treat people fairly)
intense focus
willing and able to learn great depth of information in specific field
<end excerpt> :o


*sigh*

Seriously, what's the obsession with Aspies being good at "technology and computers?"
Hmmmn... Maybe because they often are?



AlexWelshman
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08 Sep 2011, 3:52 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Quote:
At its best, autism can offer these strengths:
strong conceptualization skill
(able to mentally model complex systems, may develop instinctive understanding of the system from this internalized model)
logical thinking
(strong skills in technical research or computer programming)
exceptional memory
attention to detail
(can identify inconsistencies in processes or communications)
honest, straightforward
(can treat people fairly)
intense focus
willing and able to learn great depth of information in specific field
<end excerpt> :o


*sigh*

Seriously, what's the obsession with Aspies being good at "technology and computers?"
Hmmmn... Maybe because they often are?



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08 Sep 2011, 5:22 pm

IQ isn't everything. Taking someones brain and estimating it's potential based off of a test isn't accurate. It's just an estimation.

IQ is no different from assigning a number to a car for overall performance. In reality, there's much more to it than just one number. There's the engine power, fuel economy, handling, acceleration, braking, reliability, cost, towing capacity, electronic systems, etc. Yes, some cars are better than others overall. But it's important to remember that every vehicle is different, with many strengths and weaknesses. Intelligence is the same way.

IQ is just as subjective as someone saying that a Corvette should get an overall score of 120, while Porsche should have a score of 140. Most people would agree that they're both nice cars, but determining which is better and measuring it like it's quantitative really is kinda fruitless. Nobody ever gets the same score every time anyway, just like no movie rating is ever exactly the same. Some people are going to say 8.5 out of 10, others might give it a 9.1.


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08 Sep 2011, 8:50 pm

IQ tests are status quo tests.
The lower the IQ the more of an individual you are.

Or so I'd like to believe.


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08 Sep 2011, 8:54 pm

pensieve wrote:
IQ tests are status quo tests.
The lower the IQ the more of an individual you are.

Or so I'd like to believe.



You got a low score didn't you?



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08 Sep 2011, 9:07 pm

It's really very simple, really. An IQ test works just like any other kind of standardized test they might give you at school. It's a test of general knowledge. IQ stands for intelligence quotient. It is meant to test how well you learn things... Well that's fine and dandy, EXCEPT that if you're never been taught something that's included in the test, you can't possibly answer the question right(by anything other than luck). So basically, IQ tests assume that you've been taught everything ever, and whatever you missed, you just suck at learning... which is a crock, to say the least. I believe that anyone can learn just about anything... It's all in how it's delivered. Our minds don't all work the same, so what works for teaching something to someone doesn't work the same for another person. Then there are other factors to take into consideration, like how interested a person might be in a particular subject, or what kinds of/how many distractions there are for that person at the time of learning the information... Then there's the possibility that it's something you learned a long time ago or simply never use so you never committed it to long-term memory, and it disappeared. There are just so many factors affecting what information you retain at the time you take the test. It's all relative, and IQ tests are bogus.

And before anyone suggests it, no, I didn't do poorly on an IQ test. I've never taken an "official" test(I don't even know how you would tell the difference, but no doctor or any authority figure of any kind administered it), but I have taken an online IQ test, and the results stated that I have an IQ of 145.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about IQ. There's no reason to. It really doesn't mean anything. I know I'm intelligent, and I don't need a number to prove it. Neither does anybody else.



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08 Sep 2011, 11:19 pm

DerStadtschutz wrote:
It's really very simple, really. An IQ test works just like any other kind of standardized test they might give you at school. It's a test of general knowledge. IQ stands for intelligence quotient. It is meant to test how well you learn things... Well that's fine and dandy, EXCEPT that if you're never been taught something that's included in the test, you can't possibly answer the question right(by anything other than luck). So basically, IQ tests assume that you've been taught everything ever, and whatever you missed, you just suck at learning... which is a crock, to say the least. I believe that anyone can learn just about anything... It's all in how it's delivered. Our minds don't all work the same, so what works for teaching something to someone doesn't work the same for another person. Then there are other factors to take into consideration, like how interested a person might be in a particular subject, or what kinds of/how many distractions there are for that person at the time of learning the information... Then there's the possibility that it's something you learned a long time ago or simply never use so you never committed it to long-term memory, and it disappeared. There are just so many factors affecting what information you retain at the time you take the test. It's all relative, and IQ tests are bogus.

And before anyone suggests it, no, I didn't do poorly on an IQ test. I've never taken an "official" test(I don't even know how you would tell the difference, but no doctor or any authority figure of any kind administered it), but I have taken an online IQ test, and the results stated that I have an IQ of 145.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about IQ. There's no reason to. It really doesn't mean anything. I know I'm intelligent, and I don't need a number to prove it. Neither does anybody else.

I wish I could like this post or give it thanks. Confusing this forum with another one and a social networking site.

But, that's well said.

You forgot that your stress levels and other disorders such as anxiety or depression can affect your score too.


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