Damn, I thought Obama was too quiet today
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John_Browning
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Location: The shooting range
07 Jul 2011, 1:08 am
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/06/national/main20077400.shtml
(AP)
MEXICO CITY - U.S. and Mexican officials signed an agreement Wednesday allowing each country's trucks to traverse the other's highways, implementing a key provision of the North American Free Trade Agreement after nearly two decades of bickering.
Transportation secretaries Ray LaHood and Dionisio Perez-Jacome signed the three-year memorandum, which is based on an agreement announced in March by Presidents Barack Obama and Felipe Calderon.
NAFTA, signed in 1994, had called for Mexican trucks to have unrestricted access to highways in border states by 1995 and full access to all U.S. highways by January 2000. Canadian trucks have no limits on where they can go.
But until now, Mexican trucks have seldom been allowed farther than a buffer zone on the U.S. side of the border. In retaliation, Mexico had imposed higher tariffs on dozens of U.S. products.
The Mexican government has now agreed to suspend those tariffs as long as the agreement is in place.
The public debate surrounding the accord had mostly focused on the safety of Mexican trucks. But labor unions and other groups were strongly opposed to the agreement, which they say will cost Americans trucking and other jobs.
The U.S. Department of Transportation says the safety concerns have now been resolved. Electronic monitoring systems will track how many hours the trucks are in service. Drivers will also have to pass safety reviews, drug tests and assessments of their English-language and U.S. traffic sign-reading skills. Mexico has the authority to demand similar measures from U.S. truck drivers entering their territory.
But those won't do much to resolve the U.S. debate over the migration of jobs, which dates back to the NAFTA debates of the early 1990s. The question: Will a freer flow of cross-border cargo traffic boost business and allow owners to hire more workers, or will it ship U.S. jobs to Mexican drivers who work for lower pay?
LaHood argued the first position in a Wednesday statement.
"By opening the door to long-haul trucking between the United States and Mexico, America's third largest trading partner, we will create jobs and opportunity for our people and support economic development in both nations," he said.
The Teamsters Union was incensed. General President Jim Hoffa said the agreement was "probably illegal" because it goes further than a previously agreed-on pilot program and described it as "opening the border to dangerous trucks at a time of high unemployment and rampant drug violence."
Rep. Peter DeFazio, a Democrat from Oregon, introduced a bill Wednesday to block the administration from implementing the program, saying that his concerns about safety, security and job loss had not been met.
But other U.S. groups from the National Cattlemen's Beef Association to the National Christmas Tree Association celebrated the end of the punitive tariffs and hoped for higher sales. The tariffs tax $2.4 billion worth of U.S. exports according to the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, including tariffs up to 45 percent on certain fruits according to a trade group.
Those tariffs will be cut in half within 10 days and then eliminated completely when full cross-border traffic begins.
_________________
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- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of ret*d sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud
jojobean
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Location: In Georgia sipping a virgin pina' colada while the rest of the world is drunk
07 Jul 2011, 5:20 am
I dont think this is a good idea with all the drug traffic exspecally crystal meth coming from mexico. Are they going to inspect every truck coming through the border?
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08 Jul 2011, 12:32 pm
Why are you blaming Obama? NAFTA was negotiated by Bush Sr. (and more Republicans than Democrats supported the enabling legislation in both Houses).
Canada would have been quite content with the FTA, but Bush insisted on inviting Mexico to the party.
But having signed the deal, and given it the force of law, the United States is now obliged to live up to its commitments, including the provisions on delivery and after-sales service.
_________________
--James
08 Jul 2011, 7:01 pm
Quote:
Why are you blaming Obama?
Presidents are commonly used as scapegoats. The media does not like to follow the reasoning on why president's do things and only judges the action itself. Bush Sr. might have had a good reason to include Mexico at the time but now it obviously is not a good idea.
I am worried about the skill of these Mexican truckers. Our laws are not the same as their laws; we have more laws that concern the safety of the pedestrian which they lack. If they get pulled over and only speak Spanish, how will they communicate with an officer that only speaks only English? Do you know that they can get sued for damaging property/pedestrians with their car? How will they read the traffic signs? Do they have insurance? Do they have training?
Are the trucks checked for drugs, illegal immigrants, invasive species, and weapons at multiple stops in the US?
08 Jul 2011, 7:20 pm
techn0teen wrote:
but now it obviously is not a good idea.
Would that everyone had such an inside track to the "obvious". It's just as "obvious" to me that this is a good idea. It's only being opposed by conservatives because they've decided that, because they don't like illegal immigration, by association anything coming from Mexico must be bad.
Quote:
I am worried about the skill of these Mexican truckers.
What, Mexican trucks are harder to drive than American trucks?
Quote:
If they get pulled over and only speak Spanish, how will they communicate with an officer that only speaks only English?
And how do you know they only speak Spanish? Have you ever visited a foreign country where you didn't speak the language? What do you suppose happens in that case?
Quote:
How will they read the traffic signs?
You can't figure out what a big red stop sign means unless you read English? Have you ever been to Mexico? Were you able to figure out the traffic signs?
Besides, any driver licensed to drive in a country must already have demonstrated his understanding of traffic signals and signs. When you drive in a foreign country, you obey its traffic laws or you get cited, just like anyone else.
Quote:
Do they have insurance? Do they have training?
What silly questions. They have insurance in Mexico. They train employees. They also have running water and electricity.
Quote:
Are the trucks checked for drugs, illegal immigrants, invasive species, and weapons at multiple stops in the US?
Ah, finally you've brought up legitimate points. I agree that these issues must be addressed. But I might add that they are the same issues for all trucking in the Southwest, not just those coming from Mexico.
08 Jul 2011, 8:37 pm
Quote:
It's only being opposed by conservatives because they've decided that, because they don't like illegal immigration, by association anything coming from Mexico must be bad.
It is being opposed by conservatives for multiple reasons. If it was obvious it was a good idea, there would be no opposition at all. It is an idea that needs to be worked on.
I agree that Mexican trucks should be allowed to travel freely in the United States so long as we are guaranteed they are trained in our laws, they willingly submit their trucks for checks at multiple points, can speak & read a respectable amount of English for emergency scenarios, and their insurance would cover all costs & damages to another party if they are found at fault for damages.
Quote:
What, Mexican trucks are harder to drive than American trucks?
No they are not. But if they are unfamiliar with our laws, it will be harder to drive the trucks in accordance to them.
When I was in Mexico (yes, I have been to Mexico before), the drivers had no concept of yielding to pedestrians. A truck almost ran me over as I was crossing the street. There was a cop right there and did not do anything. You cannot do that in the states.
Quote:
And how do you know they only speak Spanish? Have you ever visited a foreign country where you didn't speak the language? What do you suppose happens in that case?
Patrol officers in the United States are not required to be bilingual. They would call a translator. Yet, sometimes, there are situations that cannot wait for a translator (tornados, rapid gunman). They should know some level of English. To my knowledge, Mexico does not have or enforce any law that their international truckers have to speak English.
Quote:
You can't figure out what a big red stop sign means unless you read English? Have you ever been to Mexico? Were you able to figure out the traffic signs?
How about the free way signs that say "Road closure" up ahead? How about the electronic signs that say "Slow down NOW: Construction work up ahead" or "Pull Over: Tornado"?
Quote:
They train employees.
I appreciate your word, but I want the Mexican trucking companies' words & promise.
Quote:
Besides, any driver licensed to drive in a country must already have demonstrated his understanding of traffic signals and signs. When you drive in a foreign country, you obey its traffic laws or you get cited, just like anyone else.
Fair enough. I just want to know they mastered the laws before they start driving here.
Quote:
What silly questions.
Questions are not silly if I want to be educated. I am willing to learn. Don't be condescending.
Quote:
They have insurance in Mexico.
So that insurance extends into the United States? If a trucker makes a mistake and crashes and/or damages my car; his or her Mexican insurance will cover all the repairment costs? I know my Californian car insurance wouldn't cover me internationally nor universally.
Quote:
They also have running water and electricity.
Let me make it clear that I do not think Mexico is a third world pit. I see Mexico as a different place with different standards & customs. Just because I am concerned about how these differences are handled does not mean I am trying to put down Mexico as a whole.
Quote:
Ah, finally you've brought up legitimate points. I agree that these issues must be addressed. But I might add that they are the same issues for all trucking in the Southwest, not just those coming from Mexico.
Do you support Mexican trucks coming in before or after these issues are addressed? That is why I am against it.[quote]
08 Jul 2011, 8:41 pm
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
It's only being opposed by conservatives because they've decided that, because they don't like illegal immigration, by association anything coming from Mexico must be bad.
It is being opposed by conservatives for multiple reasons. If it was obvious it was a good idea, there would be no opposition at all. It is an idea that needs to be worked on.
I agree that Mexican trucks should be allowed to travel freely in the United States so long as we are guaranteed they are trained in our laws, they willingly submit their trucks for checks at multiple points, can speak & read a respectable amount of English for emergency scenarios, and their insurance would cover all costs & damages to another party if they are found at fault for damages.
Quote:
What, Mexican trucks are harder to drive than American trucks?
No they are not. But if they are unfamiliar with our laws, it will be harder to drive the trucks in accordance to them.
When I was in Mexico (yes, I have been to Mexico before), the drivers had no concept of yielding to pedestrians. A truck almost ran me over as I was crossing the street. There was a cop right there and did not do anything. You cannot do that in the states.
Quote:
And how do you know they only speak Spanish? Have you ever visited a foreign country where you didn't speak the language? What do you suppose happens in that case?
Patrol officers in the United States are not required to be bilingual. They would call a translator. Yet, sometimes, there are situations that cannot wait for a translator (tornados, rapid gunman). They should know some level of English. To my knowledge, Mexico does not have or enforce any law that their international truckers have to speak English. They should have a translator with them at all times. I had a translator when I went to Mexico.
Quote:
You can't figure out what a big red stop sign means unless you read English? Have you ever been to Mexico? Were you able to figure out the traffic signs?
Yes, I have been to Mexico. I could not figure out some of the signs so I had a translator with me. How about the free way signs that say "Road closure" up ahead? How about the electronic signs that say "Slow down NOW: Construction work up ahead" or "Pull Over: Tornado"?
Quote:
They train employees.
I appreciate your word, but I want the Mexican trucking companies' words & promise.
Quote:
Besides, any driver licensed to drive in a country must already have demonstrated his understanding of traffic signals and signs. When you drive in a foreign country, you obey its traffic laws or you get cited, just like anyone else.
Fair enough. I just want to know they mastered the laws before they start driving here.
Quote:
What silly questions.
Questions are not silly if I want to be educated. I am willing to learn. Don't be condescending.
Quote:
They have insurance in Mexico.
So that insurance extends into the United States? If a trucker makes a mistake and crashes and/or damages my car; his or her Mexican insurance will cover all the repairment costs? I know my Californian car insurance wouldn't cover me internationally nor universally.
Quote:
They also have running water and electricity.
Let me make it clear that I do not think Mexico is a third world pit. I see Mexico as a different place with different standards & customs. Just because I am concerned about how these differences are handled does not mean I am trying to put down Mexico as a whole.
Quote:
Ah, finally you've brought up legitimate points. I agree that these issues must be addressed. But I might add that they are the same issues for all trucking in the Southwest, not just those coming from Mexico.
Do you support Mexican trucks coming in before or after these issues are addressed? That is why I am against it.
John_Browning
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,456
Location: The shooting range
09 Jul 2011, 4:36 am
Quote:
It's only being opposed by conservatives because they've decided that, because they don't like illegal immigration, by association anything coming from Mexico must be bad.
It's about jobs, national security, and highway safety. They take jobs from American drivers, we don't have sufficient customs agents and gear to screen them all, and Mexican trucks have a poor safety record compared to the US and Canada.
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
What, Mexican trucks are harder to drive than American trucks?
No they are not. But if they are unfamiliar with our laws, it will be harder to drive the trucks in accordance to them.
When I was in Mexico (yes, I have been to Mexico before), the drivers had no concept of yielding to pedestrians. A truck almost ran me over as I was crossing the street. There was a cop right there and did not do anything. You cannot do that in the states.
Their trucks are not as well maintained and their drivers are not trained to the same standards as in the US. My dad is a truck driver (who is only employed because what he hauls is extremely perishable) and he says that Mexicans who have applied for California commercial licenses seem to find the questions on the written test unfamiliar to them. You'd think that someone who has experience would be able to knock it out and be done with it. Knowing English is a prerequisite for a CA commercial license so that is not supposed to be a factor for a competent driver.
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
And how do you know they only speak Spanish? Have you ever visited a foreign country where you didn't speak the language? What do you suppose happens in that case?
Patrol officers in the United States are not required to be bilingual. They would call a translator. Yet, sometimes, there are situations that cannot wait for a translator (tornados, rapid gunman). They should know some level of English. To my knowledge, Mexico does not have or enforce any law that their international truckers have to speak English.
It's extremely common for them to expect to find someone here that speaks Spanish. They frequently don't even bother to learn the language even if they live here. Some probably really are too stupid to learn a second language but I think most don't care. Face it, if we were getting the best and brightest of them they'd all speak fluent English and be shrewd businessmen.
If they can't figure out by themself that there is a tornado or that someone is shooting at them, that's called natural selection and they really shouldn't be driving a 13 ton vehicle. If the NAFTA driver is the one shooting, just shoot him. They would have committed at least 4 felonies including at least one that was an immediate threat to others.
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
You can't figure out what a big red stop sign means unless you read English? Have you ever been to Mexico? Were you able to figure out the traffic signs?
How about the free way signs that say "Road closure" up ahead? How about the electronic signs that say "Slow down NOW: Construction work up ahead" or "Pull Over: Tornado"?
There are lots of other road signs that you can't just match the colors and shapes like in kindergarten. Signs that warn a road is not passable with an 18 wheeler, signs warning that roads have weight restrictions, signs that say no Jake brake, freeway off-ramp and interchange signs. Most of them won't care anyway. Do you really think they will come back and pay their tickets?
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
They train employees.
I appreciate your word, but I want the Mexican trucking companies' words & promise.
Companies may train to lax Mexican standards, but the problem is that most of the drivers are owner-operators.
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
Besides, any driver licensed to drive in a country must already have demonstrated his understanding of traffic signals and signs. When you drive in a foreign country, you obey its traffic laws or you get cited, just like anyone else.
Fair enough. I just want to know they mastered the laws before they start driving here.
In theory, that's true. In practice, nobody checks until they have caused a fatal accident.
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
What silly questions.
Questions are not silly if I want to be educated. I am willing to learn. Don't be condescending.
No, they are serious problems.
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
They have insurance in Mexico.
So that insurance extends into the United States? If a trucker makes a mistake and crashes and/or damages my car; his or her Mexican insurance will cover all the repairment costs? I know my Californian car insurance wouldn't cover me internationally nor universally.
At last check, insurance was not required in Mexico or for Mexican trucks operating here.
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
They also have running water and electricity.
Let me make it clear that I do not think Mexico is a third world pit. I see Mexico as a different place with different standards & customs. Just because I am concerned about how these differences are handled does not mean I am trying to put down Mexico as a whole.
It is a 3rd world pit but that's another topic, and they have lots of shantytowns with no water or electricity.
techn0teen wrote:
Quote:
Ah, finally you've brought up legitimate points. I agree that these issues must be addressed. But I might add that they are the same issues for all trucking in the Southwest, not just those coming from Mexico.
Do you support Mexican trucks coming in before or after these issues are addressed? That is why I am against it.
Keep them all out until we have full employment and a shortage of truck drivers, then start issuing work visas.
_________________
"Gun control is like trying to reduce drunk driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars."
- Unknown
"A fear of weapons is a sign of ret*d sexual and emotional maturity."
-Sigmund Freud
09 Jul 2011, 10:16 am
John_Browning wrote:
Keep them all out until we have full employment and a shortage of truck drivers, then start issuing work visas.
By your logic, you wouldn't allow foreign airliners to land here, either. Or foreign ships to dock. Or, by extension, you wouldn't allow any imported goods to enter the country.
If you "keep them all out until we have full employment", you're going to waiting an awfully long time, because without foreign trade, we would have a global depression of historic proportions.
I appreciate that your father is a truckdriver and has his own perspective on these type of trade agreements. But I repeat that it's so predictable that people will rant and rail against "government interference" and how they want "free market economics" until it's actually them who's facing the competition. Then suddenly they want that protectionism.
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