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Todesking
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27 Jul 2011, 7:32 pm

Britain, United States, Canada, and Russia have used psychics for espionage and military purposes with success numerous times through the 60's, 70's, 80's. and 90's. They deny they still are using them but if they were successful back then so you know they are using them now. Russia has been known for trying experiments to increase human psychic ability. United States has in the works fighter jets that can be controlled with thought. Weird stuff is out there so I am up in the air when it comes to psychic ability.


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27 Jul 2011, 7:42 pm

Todesking wrote:
Britain, United States, Canada, and Russia have used psychics for espionage and military purposes with success numerous times through the 60's, 70's, 80's. and 90's.

Evidence, please?


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aghogday
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27 Jul 2011, 7:52 pm

Janissy wrote:
TheygoMew wrote:
[What I have noticed is when people cite "rationality" as their source in a debate or argument if those people were found wrong later on, never is their rationality questioned nor do they ever admit it.


Nor should their rationality be questioned. Rationality is merely a tool to examine evidence. A too-small data set analyzed rationaly will nevertheless give a wrong answer. It is perfectly rational to think that the earth is flat and the sun rotates around it like a ball around a disc if your only data set is personal observation of the days passing and how flat the earth looks even from the nearby hill (assuming you have never gone past this nearby hill). Continuing to think that after the data set has expanded to encompass our current knowledge of the solar system is irrational. This is why rational people always ask for evidence...to expand the data set. If you want people to believe something but are unable to expand the data set in a way that proves this new belief, it is rational to not believe you.

The wrong results sometimes rationaly arrived at is not an argument for embracing irrationality. It's an argument for expanding data sets. Rational people will embrace psychic phenomena if the data set can be expanded to prove it. But the proof that has been offered thus far isn't verifiable and is easily explained in other ways. Confirmation Bias explains the anecdotal evidence. I am also pretty quick to assume data fudging when experiments "prove" psychic phenomena (I will allow that sometimes this data fudging is subconscious). That's why repeatability by many different experimenters is required before current theories are changed. A good thing too, if you look at Wakefield's "vaccines cause autism" debacle. He had experimental "proof" that seemed even more solid than what is being offered here. But it was fudged. That's why rational people are so slow to adopt new theories.


Interesting article here, regarding latest scientific reseasrch that indicates that rapid fire emotion precedes most rational thought; no one is immune to this.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/denial-science-chris-mooney?page=4


Quote:
Given the power of our prior beliefs to skew how we respond to new information, one thing is becoming clear: If you want someone to accept new evidence, make sure to present it to them in a context that doesn't trigger a defensive, emotional reaction.


While some human beings like to think they are purely rational and able to exclude emotional bias from rationality, it's exremely difficult for anyone to do this.

The latest research in what is considered psychic phenomenon, was considered an automatic sham by some in the psychological community, because of the bias in the fact that previous research results over a period of 130 years, have failed to provide any reliable suggestion of any effect what can be measured above and beyond what is normal.

Some are going to great measure, to try to ensure that no more research is done, in fact suggesting that the whole method of statistical research in the psychological community is flawed and should be changed because of the results of this statistical analysis.

It works both ways, scientists with the best of intentions are as influenced by emotional bias as anyone else, both the ones doing the research, and the scientists that may disagree with the research.

As said before, I'll reserve judgement until the results are replicated by additional researchers, but it's definitely the most compelling scientific evidence we have at this point, beyond that of the evidence suggested by Quantum Mechanics, that there may be a human element that influences physical reality, that we don't fully understand.

As suggested by the article presented in this post, the best way to determine in a discussion how strongly emotional bias is a part of someone's opinion, is their refusal to accept middle ground, when it is reasonable and available.

The hardline is the research is wrong, it's just a statistical fluke as reported by those in the psychological community, and the experiment is not worth repeating rather than allowing the normal process of peer review and replication of effort to proceed to ensure it was not a fluke.

As controversial as the subject is, someone will take the effort to repeat it, regardless of what the bias of the majority of current opinion within the psychological community suggests.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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27 Jul 2011, 7:56 pm

Police departments use them too, Fnord. Sometimes, psychics help find bodies.



Todesking
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27 Jul 2011, 8:10 pm

Fnord wrote:
Evidence, please?


Hope this helps. I had more info on my computer that I used for a Call of Cthullu RPG campaign.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/culture/ar ... argate.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remote_viewing

http://www.biomindsuperpowers.com/Pages ... tedRV.html

http://www.lfr.org/LFR/csl/library/Bremseth.pdf

http://psi-spy.blogspot.com/2009/07/psy ... d-kgb.html

http://sm4csi.home.xs4all.nl/nwo/MindCo ... e_USSR.htm


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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27 Jul 2011, 8:29 pm

So you see there are several applications involving psychic thought:

1. Mind reading
2. Clairvoyance/seeing the future/premonitions
3. Clairvoyance/seeing where an object is located
4. Intution/ knowing the emotional states of others
5. Influencing situations with thoughts or feelings. Examples are power of prayer or positive thinking.
Then there's synchronicity and mirror neuron effects involving feeling the sensations others experience while witnessing them.

So you see, the field is wide open and ready for further study :)



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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27 Jul 2011, 8:56 pm

Janissy wrote:
TheygoMew wrote:
[What I have noticed is when people cite "rationality" as their source in a debate or argument if those people were found wrong later on, never is their rationality questioned nor do they ever admit it.


Nor should their rationality be questioned. Rationality is merely a tool to examine evidence. A too-small data set analyzed rationaly will nevertheless give a wrong answer. It is perfectly rational to think that the earth is flat and the sun rotates around it like a ball around a disc if your only data set is personal observation of the days passing and how flat the earth looks even from the nearby hill (assuming you have never gone past this nearby hill). Continuing to think that after the data set has expanded to encompass our current knowledge of the solar system is irrational. This is why rational people always ask for evidence...to expand the data set. If you want people to believe something but are unable to expand the data set in a way that proves this new belief, it is rational to not believe you.

The wrong results sometimes rationaly arrived at is not an argument for embracing irrationality. It's an argument for expanding data sets. Rational people will embrace psychic phenomena if the data set can be expanded to prove it. But the proof that has been offered thus far isn't verifiable and is easily explained in other ways. Confirmation Bias explains the anecdotal evidence. I am also pretty quick to assume data fudging when experiments "prove" psychic phenomena (I will allow that sometimes this data fudging is subconscious). That's why repeatability by many different experimenters is required before current theories are changed. A good thing too, if you look at Wakefield's "vaccines cause autism" debacle. He had experimental "proof" that seemed even more solid than what is being offered here. But it was fudged. That's why rational people are so slow to adopt new theories.

This is a good argument for the existence of psychic ability. For so long, mankind was fooled into believing the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it, the ocean had an edge and if your ship drifted off it you went tumbling into space. A psychic or two might have said no, that can't be right but were burnt at the stake as heretics. This suggests the vast majority of people will not acknowledge their psychic skills. But it shows you, there's more to the solar system than meets the eye and you can't go through life with blinders on and have anything close to accuracy. Maybe anything is possible? People just aren't ready to acknowledge the possibilities yet.

Just as there's more to the solar system than appears to the naked eye, there could be more to what we are capable of experiencing, thinking, feeling.

No need to discount the idea there could be.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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27 Jul 2011, 9:02 pm

You could even argue that savants and gifted individuals have a psychic ability. They have unexplained ways of knowing how to do something or mental abilities that appear magical and cannot be explained, like psychics have. Could savant skills and giftedness be a form of psychic ability?

This is the connection I see between the autistic and the psychic and why I wonder if people with ASDs could be more prone to experiencing psychic phenomena than the non autistics?

First, it takes a willingness to open the mind and letting go of the stereotype surrounding psychics. Thinking psychically could be a lot more common than everyone thinks.

The paranormal could, indeed, be normal.



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27 Jul 2011, 9:24 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
You could even argue that savants and gifted individuals have a psychic ability. They have unexplained ways of knowing how to do something or mental abilities that appear magical and cannot be explained, like psychics have. Could savant skills and giftedness be a form of psychic ability?

No no no. Having abilities and not being able to explain them is simply a matter of subconscious versus conscious thought processes. And im not talking about Jungian or Freudian subsconsciousnes, because those butt-holes are full of more crap than psychics. What i mean is there is a part of you, your conscious self, where you have ideas about who you are, and that you are. Your conscious self is overbearingly redundant, it slows down and suffocates true potential. In your conscious thoughts, where you know what you know more definitively what you are thinking, you are double checking and triple checking yourself. In your unconscious, your thoughts just are. They do, and dont waste time considering what they are doing. The sea of subconscious is where savant ability arises from.
To simply translate any thought into communicable words requires a pruning and narrowing and killing of the essence of a thing.

I dont think i've explained this idea very well, but hopefully you get enough of the just of it to further consider it.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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27 Jul 2011, 9:35 pm

If one were to put a label on the things I've experienced and done, then psychic would most likely be it. Honestly, though, I think everyone has the abilities I do. Some just pay more attention than others.


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27 Jul 2011, 9:36 pm

the last 'psychic' occasion i can readily recall was a little more than a year ago. I got a wind-up crawling caterpillar toy. I was driving to work and randomly thinking about naming him Samuel L. Jackson The Caterpillar. I of coarse didn't mention this random thought to anyone, but within an hour one of my co-workers mentioned a crappy movie they saw starring Samuel L. Jackson (Lakeview Terrace). Of coarse i didn't mention the strange coincidence between my slightly earlier random thought, and the random discussion of the movie, but i settled on naming my caterpillar toy Samuel L. Jackson the caterpillar. I prefer not to use the word psychic because it makes me cringe, it is linked to so much stupidity that is the enemy of science.



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27 Jul 2011, 9:58 pm

I would love to have the telekinetic ability to make people's head explode like on the movie Scanners. There would be fewer as*holes runnng around and a big mess to clean up.


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28 Jul 2011, 2:29 am

Todesking wrote:


To be fair this will not cut the mustard with Fnord. As an academic he will require at least peer reviewed articles with demonstrable evidence of psychic power. The following peer reviewed publications do demonstrate psychic abilities in Homo Sapiens...as the authors admit the mechanism is not understood but the phenomena is very real

Rock AJ, Beischel J, and Schwartz GE. (accepted). Thematic analysis of research mediums' experiences of discarnate communication. Journal of Scientific Exploration

Beischel J, Schwartz GE. Anomalous information reception by research mediums demonstrated using a novel triple-blind protocol. EXPLORE: The Journal of Science & Healing. 2007;3(1):23-27.

Beischel J, Schwartz GE. Are research mediums real? A triple-blind study of anomalous information reception. Toward a Science of Consciousness 2006, April 4-8, 2006.

Schwartz GER, Russek LGS, Barentsen C. Accuracy and replicability of anomalous information retrieval: replication and extension. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research. 2002;66(3):144-156.

Schwartz GER, Russek LGS. Evidence of anomalous information retrieval between two mediums: telepathy, network memory resonance, and continuance of consciousness. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research. 2001;65(4):257-275.

Schwartz GER, Russek LGS, Nelson LA, Barentsen C. Accuracy and replicability of anomalous after-death communication across highly skilled mediums. Journal of the Society for Psychical Research. 2001;65(1):1-25.

Schwartz GE. 2001. Accuracy and replicability of anomalous after-death communication across highly skilled mediums: a call for balanced evidence-based skepticism. The Paranormal Review: 20.

Schwartz GE, Russek LG. 2001. Celebrating Susy Smith’s Soul: Preliminary Evidence for the Continuance of Smith’s Consciousness After Her Physical Death. Journal of Religious and Psychical Research 24(2): 82-91.

Schwartz, Ph.D., Gary E. R., Linda G. S. Russek, Ph.D., Donald E. Watson, M.D., Susy Smith, Elizabeth H. Smith (hyp), William James, M.D.(hyp), Henry I. Russek, M.D.(hyp), and Howard Schwartz, M.S.(hyp). 1999. Potential Medium to Departed to Medium Communication of Pictorial Information: Exploratory Evidence Consistent with Psi and Survival of Consciousness. The Noetic Journal 2(3): 283-294.

I should imagine Fnord will run away when he's see this list....



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28 Jul 2011, 6:33 am

Not all scientists deny the possibility of a "sixth sense" as some like to call it. The famous physicist Michio Kaku is one example. He equates having the ability to think outside the box with having a sixth sense and acknowledges today's technology would appear paranormal to people in the distant past.

If you explained what a cellphone is to someone living 2000 years ago, what would they think? What if you showed them a video or photo of someone using one? For one thing, a person from back then would be astounded at the production of a photo or video, let alone the cellphone depicted. What about jet airplanes or space stations? It would all appear quite paranormal to them yet we can prove the existence of this technology to them by explaining it in scientific ways. Initially, primitive man would consider such advances impossible.



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28 Jul 2011, 7:14 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Not all scientists deny the possibility of a "sixth sense" as some like to call it. The famous physicist Michio Kaku is one example. He equates having the ability to think outside the box with having a sixth sense and acknowledges today's technology would appear paranormal to people in the distant past.


Kaku's technical writings are confined to theoretical physics, however he chooses to do his public speaking and media appearances cover a broad range of topics outside his chosen field. He is similar to a Japanese-Canadian scientist David Suzuki who was a zoologist but made public speeches on population and human studies way outside his expertise. Despite being good communicators and making basic science easily accessible to the public, I find both of them to be fairly irritating and they have a tendency to make statements with little to back themselves. Sought of like "hey I'm a big shot in the media so whatever oponion I have about the price of hamburgers, world population or deforestation has gotta be right".

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
If you explained what a cellphone is to someone living 2000 years ago, what would they think? What if you showed them a video or photo of someone using one? For one thing, a person from back then would be astounded at the production of a photo or video, let alone the cellphone depicted. What about jet airplanes or space stations? It would all appear quite paranormal to them yet we can prove the existence of this technology to them by explaining it in scientific ways. Initially, primitive man would consider such advances impossible.


Very true, the problem with our scientific paradigm was well described by the late science writer Carl Sagan (himself a skeptic) who described human perception of the universe like a disc sitting on his office table that could only view 360 degrees along it's edges but was completely blind to everything above and below it.



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28 Jul 2011, 7:50 am

My point about Kaku is he challenges people to open their minds and to not be so confined by the way they think. He might not be Einstein, but he's entertaining to watch.

Speaking of Einstein, I detect a hint of the paranormal in his thinking mode, which made him before his time.