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AngelRho
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31 Jul 2011, 2:18 pm

CaptainTrips222 wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Men are people. Women are people. Thus treating men like men and women like women *is* treating men and women as people.


Indeed - the advice she seems to be giving is to be utterly sexless when dealing with women - whilst treating them as people - and not taking account of their differences and needs. What a sad, grey world that would be.


Treating people in a completely gender-neutral way is unrealistic anyway. Our society is the result of hundreds of thousands of years of social and psychological evolution.

Men and women are just plain different. That's all there is to it. I don't see the point of acting otherwise.

And before the feminist flames hit, that does NOT mean that one sex is superior/inferior to the other. It just means that we were made to complement each other and that gender roles make male and female equal. Not separate. Just different.

For legal purposes, we say "all [people] are created equal." I think that's true, but we aren't created equal in all things. I play and teach piano, and not everyone I know can do that. But I CAN'T fix a car when it breaks down. There are people who work on cars all day long but don't know middle C from any other note. And I think it's a good thing we are the way we are.

Same with differences between the sexes. It's something to be celebrated, not bemoaned. Some men enjoy just being the nice, big guy who opens doors for ladies, and some women enjoy putting on dresses and makeup, being girly, and impressing nice big guys who open doors. Some women actually WANT to stay home and raise their children, their husbands making enough money to make it happen. That doesn't mean there HAS to be a lack of respect and dignity between the two.



Tequila
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31 Jul 2011, 5:02 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Men and women are just plain different. That's all there is to it. I don't see the point of acting otherwise.


That's it. Trying to pretend otherwise would just make an environment far more sterile and humourless than it is even now. Only the far-left Millie Tant faction would get anything out of it, and their role is to divide and conquer.

The best that one can do is to behave as well as one can from people, following basic protocol (i.e. don't make sexist remarks, don't cat-call and women: don't make sexist jokes or go on about how useless men are) and then go from there. :)



blondieamc
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31 Jul 2011, 6:10 pm

Magnus_Rex wrote:
As I said: pointless. Conversations and doing things together are means of social bonding. I do have manners (when I'm not too distracted to pay attention to the other person), but pulling chairs and opening doors are ridiculously over the top for me.


Are you single? You would be shocked at how appreciative a woman is when she encounters a man who knows the difference between being polite and having manners.



Ancalagon
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31 Jul 2011, 6:13 pm

blondieamc wrote:
Magnus_Rex wrote:
As I said: pointless. Conversations and doing things together are means of social bonding. I do have manners (when I'm not too distracted to pay attention to the other person), but pulling chairs and opening doors are ridiculously over the top for me.


Are you single? You would be shocked at how appreciative a woman is when she encounters a man who knows the difference between being polite and having manners.

What is the difference?


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AsteroidNap
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31 Jul 2011, 10:53 pm

The whole notion of being 'old-fashioned' is rather trite. What is 'old-fashioned' to us now, is not the same as being 'old-fashioned' when one lived in the 1800's...or the 1100's. These notions are not only time dependent, but geographically dependent.

But being respectful is timeless, and border-less. Opening doors? What will you do when all doors are automatic? Step in front of the sensor for women? haha. Pulling a chair out? Do you think ancient Greek males pulled out chairs for females?

All of these 'chivalrous' conventions that men were supposed to do for women are just ridiculous. My manners, politeness, and respect are not altered based on a person's gender.



DW_a_mom
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31 Jul 2011, 11:04 pm

Tica wrote:
I have been searching for a good man that is a gentlemen. What happened to the men opening our door, pulling out our chair or even using manners? It seems nobody wants to act respectful and pick me up at my house and meet my parents. I may be somewhat old-fashioned but if a man can do all that he can definitely take me out on a date. Even if a man is not like that at least paying for my meal and picking me up at the house is less old-fashioned.


Families don't train their boys to do those things anymore. Kind of simple. Not the social norm.

But it doesn't mean guys will be incapable IF they know it is want you want.

If that sort of thing appeals to you, I'd take the bull by the horns, so to speak, and tell men that show interest in you. If they are really into you, they'll try.


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AngelRho
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31 Jul 2011, 11:09 pm

Tequila wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Men and women are just plain different. That's all there is to it. I don't see the point of acting otherwise.


That's it. Trying to pretend otherwise would just make an environment far more sterile and humourless than it is even now. Only the far-left Millie Tant faction would get anything out of it, and their role is to divide and conquer.

The best that one can do is to behave as well as one can from people, following basic protocol (i.e. don't make sexist remarks, don't cat-call and women: don't make sexist jokes or go on about how useless men are) and then go from there. :)

QFT



norwegianman1972
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31 Jul 2011, 11:52 pm

Tica wrote:
I have been searching for a good man that is a gentlemen. What happened to the men opening our door, pulling out our chair or even using manners? It seems nobody wants to act respectful and pick me up at my house and meet my parents. I may be somewhat old-fashioned but if a man can do all that he can definitely take me out on a date. Even if a man is not like that at least paying for my meal and picking me up at the house is less old-fashioned.


Paying for your meal? Do you not have self-respect enough to pay for your meal yourself?



ValentineWiggin
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04 Aug 2011, 2:33 pm

Tequila wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Men are people. Women are people. Thus treating men like men and women like women *is* treating men and women as people.


Indeed - the advice she seems to be giving is to be utterly sexless when dealing with women - whilst treating them as people - and not taking account of their differences and needs. What a sad, grey world that would be.


I see no differences between the sexes which require different treatment on a day to day basis,
nor see any "sadness" in treating individuals as exactly that, as opposed to archaic stereotypes based on their squishy bits.

Whereas you seem incredulous at the notion of treating women in an "utterly sexless" way, my mind is likewise-boggled at the notion of viewing fellow human beings in terms of archetypal dichotomies.

And Ancal, men and women's shared nature as people is exactly the issue, as opposed to their treatment as men vs women, as distinct from simply people. :wink:


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Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 04 Aug 2011, 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ValentineWiggin
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04 Aug 2011, 2:38 pm

Tequila wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Men and women are just plain different. That's all there is to it. I don't see the point of acting otherwise.


That's it. Trying to pretend otherwise would just make an environment far more sterile and humourless than it is even now. Only the far-left Millie Tant faction would get anything out of it, and their role is to divide and conquer.



There are more differences among the sexes than between them, but declaring that men and women are different as if that's ever been in dispute is either deliberate straw-manning or a true and fundamental misunderstanding of what exactly the discussion is about, that being differential cultural modes of treatment of the sexes based on nothing more substantial than extremely-outdated notions of female ineptitude.

The issue's hardly one of humor, or a lack thereof, but of some wanting a rational explanation for the continuing prevalence of certain traditional acts, and being told to lighten up when those who flatly-proclaim them practical or reasonable, devoid of supporting reasons, find themselves unable to provide said rational explanation and thus initiate wild chucking of herrings left and right.


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AngelRho
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04 Aug 2011, 3:04 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Declaring that men and women are different as if that's ever been in dispute is either deliberate strawmanning or a true and fundamental misunderstanding of what exactly the discussion is about, that being differential cultural treatment of the sexes based on nothing more substantial than extremely-outdated notions of female ineptitude.

Ah HA! So there MIGHT be a possible reason why differential treatment might actually be preferable? The assumption here is that the reason, if any be found, has to be a GOOD one. Is there a real need, for instance, for sex segregation of restrooms?

ValentineWiggin wrote:
The issue's hardly one of humor, or a lack thereof, but of some wanting a rational explanation for the continuing prevalence of certain traditional acts, and being told to lighten up when those who boldly-proclaim them practical or reasonable, devoid of supporting reasons, find themselves unable to provide said rational explanation.

Well, in practice, just about anything can be "rationalized." I do certain things because I just want to be nice. I don't see women as being inferior at all, and no action of mine, or at least I hope, would ever be willfully condescending.

Now, are men and women naturally good at certain skills/abilities, and do certain areas of critical thinking seem to favor one over the other? I've often heard in psych classes that women (in general) tend to be more nurturers/comforters, whereas men (in general) care less about validating your feelings and more about solving the problem. This is, of course, a generalization that by no means can't be devoid of exceptions.

On a fundamental level, and I also realize I'm stating the obvious, women are naturally equipped for child-bearing/nursing while men are, well, little else than sperm donors. Does it not also follow that these fundamental natural gender roles could extend to other areas of life? It's nothing to do with one being inferior as a whole to the other, just optimally equipped to naturally handle certain tasks.

Lastly, I'm not meaning to strawman anything here. Your response seems to indicate at the very least a partial recognition that there are some differences that probably shouldn't be ignored. There does, on the other hand, seem to be a degree of hypersensitivity among feminazi types whenever differences are even so much as hinted at. I'm curious of your thoughts here.



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04 Aug 2011, 3:27 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Ah HA! So there MIGHT be a possible reason why differential treatment might actually be preferable? The assumption here is that the reason, if any be found, has to be a GOOD one. Is there a real need, for instance, for sex segregation of restrooms?

The only assumption is that when asked why men and women should be treated so differently, people have as-yet come up with no better response on this thread than to continuously-assert that the sexes aren't identical. That's the "reason" provided, I called it irrelevant, and in so-doing pretty much did the opposite of what you just asserted I implied.
AngelRho wrote:
Well, in practice, just about anything can be "rationalized." I do certain things because I just want to be nice. I don't see women as being inferior at all, and no action of mine, or at least I hope, would ever be willfully condescending.

If it was an issue of "being nice" to people, wholesale, there would not be a gendered component, no? That's the entire crux of discussion.
AngelRho wrote:
On a fundamental level, and I also realize I'm stating the obvious, women are naturally equipped for child-bearing/nursing while men are, well, little else than sperm donors. Does it not also follow that these fundamental natural gender roles could extend to other areas of life? It's nothing to do with one being inferior as a whole to the other, just optimally equipped to naturally handle certain tasks.

Like...opening doors and paying for dinner and putting-on of coats, no doubt. :roll:
AngelRho wrote:
Lastly, I'm not meaning to strawman anything here. Your response seems to indicate at the very least a partial recognition that there are some differences that probably shouldn't be ignored.

No. Actually, I see no differences between the sexes prescribing different definitions of what is "nice" or "polite" or "courteous", and in truth no differences between them substantial enough to prescribe different means of treatment in things even beyond the superficial. If men naturally evolved to be better providers and women to be better nurturers (and that's a big "if") what, exactly has that to do with the irrationality of cultural pigeonholing of the individual into either of those roles? Not a damned thing.
AngelRho wrote:
There does, on the other hand, seem to be a degree of hypersensitivity among feminazi types whenever differences are even so much as hinted at. I'm curious of your thoughts here.

Aside from the fact that the Nazis were and are blatantly anti-feminist both philosophically and politically,
my thoughts on the subject remain on the continuing penchant it would appear that some have for defensively-deflecting onto others with accusations of hypersensitivity and humorlessness for the mere crime of asking for rational justification for this-or-that practice. Ironically, it would thus appear that said asker is less the one without humor, and certainly not the more hypersensitive, and said irony amuses me. :lol:


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parrow
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04 Aug 2011, 4:03 pm

You must realize the context of what women were when manners still existed.

The Good Wife’s Guide. Extract from Housekeeping Monthly, 1955.
■Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before to have a delicious meal ready, on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have been thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.
■ Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.
■ Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first – remember his topics of conversation are more important that yours.
■ Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner, or other places of entertainment without you. Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax.
Don’t complain if he’s late home for dinner or even if he stays out all night. count this as minor compared to what he might have gone through that day.
■ Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.
■ Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember he is the master of the house and as such will always excercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.
■ A good wife always knows her place.

If I met a lady who followed these rules, I'd be happy to treat her properly as gentleman should.



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04 Aug 2011, 4:08 pm

Paying for meals is a nice gesture I do it for people and they me - not boyfriends though. Just anyone.

The door opening coat grabbing screams "self proclaimed nice guy looking to get laid" to me, and I would treat that sort of behaviour suspiciously especially if it was someone I hardly knew.

Manners to me:

Saying please and thank you
Respecting others property
Respecting others
Greeting people when you meet them/see them
Not chewing with your mouth open.
Opening doors if the person is old, diasbled or carrying a lot of things
picking up something someone drops if they are elderly, have their hands full or disabled

Taking someone's coat is just pointless. So is opening a car door for a free handed fully able person, same with the other things.



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06 Aug 2011, 7:00 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
The only assumption is that when asked why men and women should be treated so differently, people have as-yet come up with no better response on this thread than to continuously-assert that the sexes aren't identical.

I don't think the traditional 'take coat, open door' stuff is treating people particularly differently. It consists of doing entirely trivial things.

I also think the 'why' question is entirely answered by the word 'tradition'. Tradition isn't something that can't ever change, but if all you're asking is why people do (or used to do) things that way, it's tradition.

Quote:
If it was an issue of "being nice" to people, wholesale, there would not be a gendered component, no?

I don't see why not.


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