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Tequila
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06 Aug 2011, 7:48 pm

hale_bopp wrote:
The door opening coat grabbing screams "self proclaimed nice guy looking to get laid" to me.


The slag can take her own effing coat off and can shut her own door behind her too. ;)



InsomniacDreams
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06 Aug 2011, 9:58 pm

Great job scaring the OP away.

Tica wrote:
I have been searching for a good man that is a gentlemen. What happened to the men opening our door, pulling out our chair or even using manners? It seems nobody wants to act respectful and pick me up at my house and meet my parents. I may be somewhat old-fashioned but if a man can do all that he can definitely take me out on a date. Even if a man is not like that at least paying for my meal and picking me up at the house is less old-fashioned.


You haven't posted in here since you started the thread, but maybe you have been lurking and watching, or will notice you were quoted. Hopefully you will also notice that some of the guys still believe in it and practice it.

Ancalagon wrote:
... Short answer: Feminism happened to them...


/\/\ This I tend to agree with this to a point.

Who_Am_I wrote:
...Now that we can support ourselves, it's pointless and infantilising...


This just made me laugh and made me think back to the days I used to run fetish events and to all the individuals I knew that were into infantilism. Then I had to go and look for something on it... but found an interesting post, by what I believe may be a feminist...

Quote:
Infantilizing Men
>Recently, I read a very interesting post by Hugo Schwyzer that made me think about how often men are expected to pay a role of infantilized, immature and helpless little creatures in a relationship. Hugo’s description of how he used to feel in his relationships is very telling in this respect:
“In my past marriages and relationships, I found myself– like so many men — taking on the part of the “naughty boy” and the “helpless child.” Time and again, I turned wives and girlfriends into mother-figures, and the result was inevitably disastrous. I’m not going to pretend to have all the answers as to why we do what we do, or even why I did what I did. I do know that I’m not the only man who found “courtship” easier than “relationship.” Over and over again, I devoted time and energy to “getting the girl”, and when I succeeded, soon felt vaguely let down and confused about my role. It was all too easy for me to become increasingly childlike...

Hugo Schwyzer tells us honestly why men agree to play the part of a helpless child within a relationship: it seems easier. Of course, as he also recognizes, this stunts your emotional growh and robs you of power to decide what actually goes on both inside the relationship and inside your own house. For my part, I’m more interested in why women agree to take on this model of behavior.
The answer, I believe, is manifold. On the one hand, there is that feeling of being indispensable that I discussed in my post on gender and housework. There is also a need to conform to the patriarchal standard that presents all women as more emotional as men, better at communication than men, and more capable of resolving emotional issues than men.

And then, of course, there is this whole issue of empowerment and control. As women, we often feel disempowered in view of continued gender inequality within society...

Our society offers us the romantic and emotional sphere as pretty much the only space where we can be completely in control. If you are infantilized by men at work, in a classroom, in the public sphere, it often seems like the only solution is to infantilize them in return in the personal sphere.

What we get as a result, is an unhealthy and unequal balance of power both in the public and in the private sphere...


More can be read about it here
http://clarissasblog.com/2009/10/17/infantilizing-men/



LadySera
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06 Aug 2011, 10:38 pm

I think chivalry is nice sometimes. I'm not big on socialization but not long ago I went to a bar for a few drinks. An older man started buying them for me. It was pleasantly out of the ordinary. Conversely I like to dress up for that type of thing. I guess I'm sort of old school in that reserve. The guy was complimenting me on lots of stuff I just like to do naturally when I go out, such as perfume, makeup and having my nails done. I realized it was sort of like we were unicorns to each other. I am used to dressing like that from where I used to live and people got ready to go out. Here I looked around and the other girls in my age range were all wearing cut off shorts and flip flops.



InsomniacDreams
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07 Aug 2011, 2:08 am

LadySera wrote:
I think chivalry is nice sometimes ...Conversely I like to dress up for that type of thing. I guess I'm sort of old school in that reserve. The guy was complimenting me on lots of stuff I just like to do naturally when I go out, such as perfume, makeup and having my nails done. I realized it was sort of like we were unicorns to each other. I am used to dressing like that from where I used to live and people got ready to go out. Here I looked around and the other girls in my age range were all wearing cut off shorts and flip flops.


Are your nails real? I ask because mine have finally in the last couple months grown back from freezing off some time ago, and I keep them polished and shaped nicely and people seem fascinated by them. The cut-off shorts and flip flops are everywhere. Sadly, I was disappointed to find-out that wearing pj bottoms seems to be as well.


*Off Topic, Anais Nin, very interesting individual, not one I see many have avatars of either, cool*



joeyfarlz
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11 Aug 2011, 6:24 am

Ancalagon wrote:
Tica wrote:
What happened to the men opening our door, pulling out our chair or even using manners?

Short answer: Feminism happened to them. (Except for the manners part.)

Long answer: Lots of the old-fashioned manners are out of style, and not everyone even remembers what they were exactly. Probably the best way to get one is to find someone polite, and explain your exact feelings on door-opening and so forth.


One of my ex-boyfriends used to pull out chairs and open doors for me...



AsteroidNap
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11 Aug 2011, 11:25 am

LadySera wrote:
I think chivalry is nice sometimes. I'm not big on socialization but not long ago I went to a bar for a few drinks. An older man started buying them for me. It was pleasantly out of the ordinary. Conversely I like to dress up for that type of thing. I guess I'm sort of old school in that reserve. The guy was complimenting me on lots of stuff I just like to do naturally when I go out, such as perfume, makeup and having my nails done. I realized it was sort of like we were unicorns to each other. I am used to dressing like that from where I used to live and people got ready to go out. Here I looked around and the other girls in my age range were all wearing cut off shorts and flip flops.


And why do you think he was buying them for you? Chivalry???



AsteroidNap
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11 Aug 2011, 11:40 am

AngelRho wrote:
blah, blah, blah.. feminazi.. blah, blah, blah.


Whatever your argument, whatever point you were trying to make, is utterly lost once you pull out this bullshit term. You know it's a bullshit term, but you just had to go there, didn't you. I thought this community was better than that...but I guess you find all types even here.



CaroleTucson
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11 Aug 2011, 12:15 pm

It's astonishing to me to see the hatred and vitriol directed at women on this site, and for the stupidest things. You curse at us and call us disgusting names simply because for centuries it's been a cultural norm that men hold open a door for women??? Good lord, get a dose of reality here and grow up, for chrissake.

Personally, I'm very wary when a man makes a point of calling himself a "gentleman" simply because he opens my door. I've seen too many men who open literal doors and close figurative ones, if you get what I'm saying. Holding a door doesn't mean a damn thing when women are paid sixty cents on the dollar compared to men, or when women are held back or even fired because they were too "uppity" in the corporate office.

Sometimes I think that the most glaring aspie symptom of all is ... an appalling lack of perspective.



mv
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11 Aug 2011, 12:17 pm

CaroleTucson wrote:
Sometimes I think that the most glaring aspie symptom of all is ... an appalling lack of perspective.


:hail:

Most of the time I read the horseshit on here and my first response is scorn, but then I dial it back and think to myself: okay, many of those people are commenting out of youth and complete ignorance. It's pretty obvious, once you look at it that way...



CaroleTucson
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11 Aug 2011, 12:26 pm

mv wrote:
CaroleTucson wrote:
Sometimes I think that the most glaring aspie symptom of all is ... an appalling lack of perspective.


:hail:

Most of the time I read the horseshit on here and my first response is scorn, but then I dial it back and think to myself: okay, many of those people are commenting out of youth and complete ignorance. It's pretty obvious, once you look at it that way...


I think you're right :)



hyperlexian
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11 Aug 2011, 1:33 pm

i am super-paranoid and oversensitive to any signs of "chivalry".

given the choice i'll pay 100% of the bill, bring presents for my date, open doors, put a man's coat on him, etc. if my date wants to do these things for me too, then we can shift the balance so that we keep it equal and both do things for each other and split the bill.

i suppose i feel a certain backlash against the ways of the olden days. i am proud that i am strong and financially independent so i would never want to go back to the days when i would be dependent on a man for certain things. i see these "chivalrous" actions as paternal displays of power, and i like to enact the same impression.

EDIT: i don't fuss around if someone offers to do stuff for me. i accept or decline... politely.


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Ancalagon
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11 Aug 2011, 5:38 pm

CaroleTucson wrote:
It's astonishing to me to see the hatred and vitriol directed at women on this site, and for the stupidest things. You curse at us and call us disgusting names simply because for centuries it's been a cultural norm that men hold open a door for women???

Was there really a lot of name-calling or vitriol? I don't really remember any, and even the 'feminazi' thing seems more likely an overblown criticism of feminism than of women.

Quote:
Holding a door doesn't mean a damn thing when women are paid sixty cents on the dollar compared to men, or when women are held back or even fired because they were too "uppity" in the corporate office.

This is true, but what's the problem? Is it door-opening, or is it the 'uppity women' thing?

Quote:
Sometimes I think that the most glaring aspie symptom of all is ... an appalling lack of perspective.

I'm pretty sure this is also an NT symptom.


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11 Aug 2011, 6:05 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
I don't really remember any, and even the 'feminazi' thing seems more likely an overblown criticism of feminism than of women.


The invective 'feminazi' infuriates me to no end. It is profoundly disrespectful on so many levels, to so many people. It likens the feminist movement to one of the most horrendous movements in human history under Fascist Germany. This term attempts to undercut the countless positive influences that the feminist movement has had. Simultaneously, it disrespects the awful legacy perpetrated on the Jewish people.

When someone uses it, it tells me they have no understanding of this, and are simply regurgitating propaganda they've heard, and thus should be ignored really.

When someone uses it, it also tells me they're just as likely to use terms like 'slut', 'whore', 'hysterical'...the list goes on...terms all used to 'put women in their place'.

If one has an issue with Feminism, then debate it. Don't resort to invectives because one's argument is failing.



hyperlexian
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11 Aug 2011, 6:12 pm

AsteroidNap wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
I don't really remember any, and even the 'feminazi' thing seems more likely an overblown criticism of feminism than of women.


The invective 'feminazi' infuriates me to no end. It is profoundly disrespectful on so many levels, to so many people. It likens the feminist movement to one of the most horrendous movements in human history under Fascist Germany. This term attempts to undercut the countless positive influences that the feminist movement has had. Simultaneously, it disrespects the awful legacy perpetrated on the Jewish people.

When someone uses it, it tells me they have no understanding of this, and are simply regurgitating propaganda they've heard, and thus should be ignored really.

When someone uses it, it also tells me they're just as likely to use terms like 'slut', 'whore', 'hysterical'...the list goes on...terms all used to 'put women in their place'.

If one has an issue with Feminism, then debate it. Don't resort to invectives because one's argument is failing.

i :heart: this post.


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MXH
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11 Aug 2011, 6:30 pm

AsteroidNap wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
I don't really remember any, and even the 'feminazi' thing seems more likely an overblown criticism of feminism than of women.


The invective 'feminazi' infuriates me to no end. It is profoundly disrespectful on so many levels, to so many people. It likens the feminist movement to one of the most horrendous movements in human history under Fascist Germany. This term attempts to undercut the countless positive influences that the feminist movement has had. Simultaneously, it disrespects the awful legacy perpetrated on the Jewish people.

When someone uses it, it tells me they have no understanding of this, and are simply regurgitating propaganda they've heard, and thus should be ignored really.

When someone uses it, it also tells me they're just as likely to use terms like 'slut', 'whore', 'hysterical'...the list goes on...terms all used to 'put women in their place'.

If one has an issue with Feminism, then debate it. Don't resort to invectives because one's argument is failing.


the whole feminazi thing started not because of the rights women had gained, but of the way most hardcore feminists seem to want to blame everything on men and not accept that maybe it is part womens fault that they have allowed the words slut, whore and so on to be used for all this time. You cant let a dog pee on your carpet for years and then expect him not to do it again.