If a girl is raped and pregnant, should she keep the baby?

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LKL
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19 Nov 2012, 11:23 pm

AngelRho wrote:
By your car-accident refutation analogy, we should also sex classes,

You mean like sex ed, required for most high school students?

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...have police do "routine checks" to make sure everyone is following the rules and fine those who, say, aren't on birth control and/or don't use condoms.

Well, the police do get involved when someone ha sex too far under the influence, that being considedered 'rape' because the inebriated person is incapable of consent under the law. The cops don't do checks, but all metaphors break down at some point.

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There would have to be special restrictions on who would be allowed to suspend b.c. and prophylactics for procreation purposes...

Like registered sex offenders?

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But in reality, we treat sex as a right, not a privilege to be earned and that can be taken away if we fail to follow the rules. We really only take away freedom from mostly violent criminals who are a known danger to women.
or children. Or men.

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... we did wonder if making her stay an extra day wasn't due to the hospital getting a little more Medicaid money out of us. I prefer to think the doctor was just doing the whole "better safe..." routine).

That is a major aspect of hospital births, and one of the things that a lot of home-birth advocates really hate on: we try to plan for the worst non-zebra event that can happen.

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Home births are great when everything goes smooth like clockwork.

Exactly.

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Am I to understand your eclampsia patient had attempted a home birth???
planned home birth, an hour each way from the hospital, with a lay-midwife. No one so much as took a blood pressure on her; all they knew was that she had a headache, until she started seizing. They didn't want to "medicalize" the birth (insert snarling tone of voice as you read this).

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Yeah, I'm one of THOSE guys who thinks guts are cool. What's up with wussies who pass out at the sight of blood and entrails? I dunno...

Most HCPs are that type as well. Blood and guts are fine, a long ad they're under control.



AngelRho
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20 Nov 2012, 7:43 am

LKL wrote:
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Yeah, I'm one of THOSE guys who thinks guts are cool. What's up with wussies who pass out at the sight of blood and entrails? I dunno...

Most HCPs are that type as well. Blood and guts are fine, a long ad they're under control.

Maybe I'm in the wrong profession then.

Two things helped:
1. Surgeons make it look so easy. This guy repaired intestinal scar tissue from the previous surgery in addition to stitching up all the girl parts as quickly and dexterously as I would a Mozart keyboard sonata when I've really been practicing, or like I'd have played one of the Weber clarinet concerti back my college days.

2. The way a surgical environment is set up, it's difficult to connect all the "stuff" with the person the "stuff" belongs to. I suppose it might be different if you witnessed someone being brutally attacked or, say, a fellow soldier get blown to bits in the battlefield.

And it could be I've just been desensitized by gory horror films and video games like Gears of War. Whatever the reason, it was an awesome thing to participate in, the birth of my littlest boy notwithstanding. What really gets me, though, is seeing someone's insides and coming face to face with just how delicate we really are.



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20 Nov 2012, 10:10 am

If you believe that a woman impregnated through rape should be forced to deliver the child, then you believe that a rapist ought to have more power over a woman's life than the woman herself.



AngelRho
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20 Nov 2012, 11:38 am

0neironaut wrote:
If you believe that a woman impregnated through rape should be forced to deliver the child, then you believe that a rapist ought to have more power over a woman's life than the woman herself.

Criminals often do have more power over people's lives and property than the people themselves, though. A criminal's actions place him "above the law" so to speak, and he is asserting power that isn't rightfully his. Penalties, enslavement, incarceration, and death are attempts to put the powers wrongfully asserted by the criminal back into balance with society.

The power a criminal has over a rape victim extends to forcing a choice a woman shouldn't have to make because, one way or another, the baby is coming out and the rape victim can't change that, whether abortion or at-term childbirth (or anywhere in-between, of course). Blaming the VICTIM for the death of an aborted baby is unjust. But when a person is destroyed, someone or something must account for that death, be it "Nature," "acts of God," another person, or the dead person himself. Blaming the woman for killing a child conceived out of rape is wrong. You can't blame the baby because it isn't the baby's fault it was conceived. All you have left is to blame the rapist. And if he causes death, the state should require his life also.



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20 Nov 2012, 11:48 am

Abortion is just plain wrong.



Oodain
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20 Nov 2012, 11:57 am

AngelRho wrote:
0neironaut wrote:
If you believe that a woman impregnated through rape should be forced to deliver the child, then you believe that a rapist ought to have more power over a woman's life than the woman herself.

Criminals often do have more power over people's lives and property than the people themselves, though. A criminal's actions place him "above the law" so to speak, and he is asserting power that isn't rightfully his. Penalties, enslavement, incarceration, and death are attempts to put the powers wrongfully asserted by the criminal back into balance with society.

The power a criminal has over a rape victim extends to forcing a choice a woman shouldn't have to make because, one way or another, the baby is coming out and the rape victim can't change that, whether abortion or at-term childbirth (or anywhere in-between, of course). Blaming the VICTIM for the death of an aborted baby is unjust. But when a person is destroyed, someone or something must account for that death, be it "Nature," "acts of God," another person, or the dead person himself. Blaming the woman for killing a child conceived out of rape is wrong. You can't blame the baby because it isn't the baby's fault it was conceived. All you have left is to blame the rapist. And if he causes death, the state should require his life also.


what a blinding pro life stance you have there,

disregarding everything but your own twisted sense of logic and justice.


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20 Nov 2012, 1:33 pm

AngelRho wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
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But if you give consent, then get preggers (modern birth control is pretty reliable so chances of this happening should be low), the responsible, right thing to do would be to have the baby.
The responsible, right thing to do is to abort unwanted pregnancies as quickly as possible.

Condoms have a 3% failure rate. This means that for each 33 women that have sex today using condoms, the expected number of cases in which the condom fails is 1.


Actually that would be ducking responsibility, the woman chose to have sex, both the man and the woman in that situation should have to deal with the consequences.

What you are essentially saying is it is okay to commit infanticide if the child is "incovenient," and this is why the overwhelming majorities of abortions take place...

Abortion is essentially legalized infanticide.


No. It's self defense. It's no more murder than shooting a would-be rapist is.

Depends on whether there is a genuine threat. Someone who understands the risks of having sex makes the choice to accept those consequences should they become a reality. Essentially, if you choose to have sex, you choose to roll the dice on getting pregnant. You HAVE a choice in terms of whether you get pregnant or not, so it isn't a good self-defense argument if no one is being threatened or ever under attack.

I don't LIKE that rape would make it a valid self-defense argument, but it is what it is and as a man it would be unjust for me to tell a woman she doesn't have freedom to do what she pleases when she never had a choice in getting pregnant in the first place.

Now, if becoming pregnant was not rape and thus a choice, I know for certain that things do happen in a pregnancy that really can be threatening to a mother's life. If you don't KNOW, then no one can rightly blame you because it is self-defense. But I do question whether the risk really is as severe as the pro-infanticide activists would have us believe. My wife experienced placenta previa in her second pregnancy, and there is no way to have a normal delivery when that happens. Survival of the infant and the mother is going to depend on how soon you can get to the hospital and just how close you can carry the pregnancy to term. In our case, we were able to get to the hospital in under an hour, the baby was delivered quickly, and she was over 4 pounds. There were a few problems like you'd expect with a 7 month premie, but a few weeks later she was strong, healthy, and you'd never have known things got so screwed up with the pregnancy. Now she's happy, she's learning to play piano, and she'll turn 4 in January. If my wife had elected to have an abortion, it would have deeply upset me, and I certainly wouldn't be enjoying a life enriched as it is by my daughter. But I value my wife's life above all other concerns. I would have learned to deal with it and somehow let it go. I feel blessed that I didn't have to.


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Depends on whether there is a genuine threat. Someone who understands the risks of having sex makes the choice to accept those consequences should they become a reality. Essentially, if you choose to have sex, you choose to roll the dice on getting pregnant. You HAVE a choice in terms of whether you get pregnant or not, so it isn't a good self-defense argument if no one is being threatened or ever under attack.


Self defense is not about prior choice. If I annoy someone they still have no right to punch me in the face; likewise if a woman chooses to have sex this does not justify forcing her to remain pregnant.


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LKL
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20 Nov 2012, 1:56 pm

AngelRho wrote:
And it could be I've just been desensitized by gory horror films and video games like Gears of War. Whatever the reason, it was an awesome thing to participate in, the birth of my littlest boy notwithstanding. What really gets me, though, is seeing someone's insides and coming face to face with just how delicate we really are.

Since starting to work in a hospital, I have grown incapable of watching gratuitous violence and gore on films and in tv. Now that I know exactly what fine structures are being destroyed, and the amount of reconstruction, months or years of recovery, and the incomprehensible pain that will be required (not to mention the money involved!), it seems as childish as a four-year-old destroying a fine renaissance painting just to hear the canvas rip.
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Criminals often do have more power over people's lives and property than the people themselves, though. A criminal's actions place him "above the law" so to speak, and he is asserting power that isn't rightfully his. Penalties, enslavement, incarceration, and death are attempts to put the powers wrongfully asserted by the criminal back into balance with society.

Yes; thankfully, we have laws, police, courts, and modern medicine to mitigate the destruction that criminals cause.

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...one way or another, the baby is coming out and the rape victim can't change that, whether abortion or at-term childbirth (or anywhere in-between, of course).

Here's where our disagreement on whether or not the zef is a 'baby' begins to matter, perhaps; getting that little bit of proto-person out, before it actually becomes a person, significantly reduces the damage imnsho: not just because the physical damage to the woman's body is less, not just because she regains control over her own body sooner, but because the rapist has not successfully reproduced himself.



androbot2084
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20 Nov 2012, 2:04 pm

Keeping the baby is like marrying the rapist.



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25 Nov 2012, 12:53 am

I'm sort of in between pro-life and pro-choice. I am pro-life, but I don't believe abortion should be illegal (since that doesn't stop it from happening anyway; just makes it more dangerous for the women that have them illegally). I would never get one or encourage someone to get one, but if they chose to do so, I would not judge them or think less of them. If *I* was in that situation, I would probably keep the baby. If someone else is in that situation, the choice is theirs.


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25 Nov 2012, 12:54 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Keeping the baby is like marrying the rapist.


I disagree. There have been women who have been raped and made the decision to keep the baby. They are not embracing the rapist at all, but choosing to embrace a life that is directly a part of themselves as well.


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MisterCosgrove
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25 Nov 2012, 12:55 am

NO, I may have used con on this earlier but now I believe anti-abortion has it's exceptions for rape and incest. The baby truly didn't deserve it.


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