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Orwell
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01 Aug 2011, 10:44 pm

RedHanrahan wrote:
Surely Cubas affairs are for Cubans to worry about and everyone else should butt out unless invited as say for example Venezuela has been.

We can take an interest in other nations' affairs, whether for economic, military, or humanitarian reasons. How far we take our interest, and whether it extends to open interventionism, is a matter for debate, but we're allowed to be concerned with what happens in Cuba.

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I can't help but wonder how well informed citizens of the uSA are in regards life on the ground in Cuba, I have met no-one who has actually been there who had much by way of harsh criticism. So they kicked out a corrupt regime and the US has sour grapes - get over it, it is their country and their affairs and certainly none of yours.

I believe the Cuban diaspora down here in Miami would have some words for you.


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Orwell
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01 Aug 2011, 10:45 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
PS: I doubt that dropping the embargo would lead to a revolution. There hasn't been a revolution in the other communist states we trade with. At least, not a successful one. And honestly, I'm not sure if the anarchy that would result would be any better for your average Cuban. If you look at your history, revolutions rarely work out well.

Perhaps not a revolution, but maybe a more open economic policy would lead to a Cuban Glasnost and the eventual liberalization and democratization of the island.


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Master_Pedant
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01 Aug 2011, 10:52 pm

Orwell wrote:
RedHanrahan wrote:
I can't help but wonder how well informed citizens of the uSA are in regards life on the ground in Cuba, I have met no-one who has actually been there who had much by way of harsh criticism. So they kicked out a corrupt regime and the US has sour grapes - get over it, it is their country and their affairs and certainly none of yours.

I believe the Cuban diaspora down here in Miami would have some words for you.


Cuba certainly has quite a few unsavory aspects (particularly it's status as a One-Party State), but I do wonder how many Cuban Floridans actually lived in Cuba versus how many are descedents of rebels or other groups that left Cuba during the Revolution. While Cuba's certainly no piece of cake, how many of the said people you run into who hate the Cuban government are representative of the average (admittedly, without experience of any other existence) Cuban?


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Orwell
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02 Aug 2011, 12:12 am

Master_Pedant wrote:
Cuba certainly has quite a few unsavory aspects (particularly it's status as a One-Party State), but I do wonder how many Cuban Floridans actually lived in Cuba versus how many are descedents of rebels or other groups that left Cuba during the Revolution. While Cuba's certainly no piece of cake, how many of the said people you run into who hate the Cuban government are representative of the average (admittedly, without experience of any other existence) Cuban?

The Cuban emigres who actually lived there before coming here are more outspoken in their hatred for Castro and the Cuban government. I knew one woman who has been planning for years a party to celebrate Fidel Castro's death whenever it happens.

That said, the Cubans here who left during or shortly after the Revolution are obviously the ones who didn't like Castro or his government, so there is no saying if they are representative of Cubans as a whole, either today or even from the period when Castro seized power.


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bergie
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02 Aug 2011, 12:41 am

Cuba has persisted against all odds for 55 years with the world's most powerful economic and military power doing everything it can to destroy it.

If we lifted our silly embargo, Cuba would thrive with their tourism, cigar, and sugar economy . Unfortunately a successful, Communist nation (besides China) would prove too many people wrong.



ruveyn
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02 Aug 2011, 4:08 am

bergie wrote:
Cuba has persisted against all odds for 55 years with the world's most powerful economic and military power doing everything it can to destroy it.

If we lifted our silly embargo, Cuba would thrive with their tourism, cigar, and sugar economy . Unfortunately a successful, Communist nation (besides China) would prove too many people wrong.


The problem there is Castro himself. Once he dies (and that won't be too long from now) the embargo policy will change.

ruveyn



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02 Aug 2011, 11:57 am

bergie wrote:
Cuba has persisted against all odds for 55 years with the world's most powerful economic and military power doing everything it can to destroy it.

If we lifted our silly embargo, Cuba would thrive with their tourism, cigar, and sugar economy . Unfortunately a successful, Communist nation (besides China) would prove too many people wrong.


Although I'm sure Cuba would make a lot more money trading with the world's superpower that's only a several kilometres away (well, usually, obviously not when America's going through a deep recession or stagnated growth), but Cuba still has a tourism industry. Peope from Europe and Canada go to Cuban resorts quite often.


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02 Aug 2011, 11:23 pm

Why shouldn't the far-left support Castro?

Castro supports communism, wiping out capitalistism (including myself), giving citizens free health (if you can call it health care), and so on. These are exactly what the far-left wants.



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03 Aug 2011, 1:36 am

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Wait, who is defending Cuba? I remember reading about the Cuban missile crisis in a textbook, but until now I've not heard anything spoken about Cuba since the time that Castro became ill.

There is a right-wing meme that American liberals are infatuated with Communist Cuba. Utter bullocks, of course, but why let facts get in the way of a good political smear job?


Type "Micheal Moore and Fidel Castro" on google and be shocked.



ruveyn
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03 Aug 2011, 5:00 am

Blue_Jackets_fan wrote:
Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Wait, who is defending Cuba? I remember reading about the Cuban missile crisis in a textbook, but until now I've not heard anything spoken about Cuba since the time that Castro became ill.

There is a right-wing meme that American liberals are infatuated with Communist Cuba. Utter bullocks, of course, but why let facts get in the way of a good political smear job?


Type "Micheal Moore and Fidel Castro" on google and be shocked.


I just did that. What is shocking?

ruveyn



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03 Aug 2011, 5:55 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
I am fiscally far-left but I am sick of fiscally far-left people defending Cuba. Cuba is a sh**hole. In Cuba you can go to jail if your house burns down.

This YouTube user defends Cuba. Laugh at him.
VVV
http://www.youtube.com/user/SovietTrall
Actually, I don't give a flying farm chicken's green-spackled feces about Cuba. I don't think that Cuba really amounts lately to a pair of dingo's kidneys. They don't bother anybody else. I don't like them. I would rather be shot than live there. I grow increasingly annoyed with people who seem to believe that it is productive to be a nuisance to them.

Clear enough?



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03 Aug 2011, 6:02 am

Orwell wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Wait, who is defending Cuba? I remember reading about the Cuban missile crisis in a textbook, but until now I've not heard anything spoken about Cuba since the time that Castro became ill.

There is a right-wing meme that American liberals are infatuated with Communist Cuba. Utter bullocks, of course, but why let facts get in the way of a good political smear job?
"Bollocks," damn it. A bullock is a castrated bull.

"I don't care a whole herd of bullocks," I said to someone once, "what happens in bloody Cuba. They keep to their own devices. Whatever their many faults may be, this is sufficient reason to admire them."

Or I could say, "boiled bollocks and rocky mountain oysters on a toasted field-muffin."



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03 Aug 2011, 9:21 pm

Blue_Jackets_fan wrote:
Why shouldn't the far-left support Castro?

Castro supports communism, wiping out capitalistism (including myself), giving citizens free health (if you can call it health care), and so on. These are exactly what the far-left wants.

The reason some of the economically far left wouldn't support Cuba is because there are some people on the far left who believe in democracy. Believe it or not, some on the far left believe that people need to decide that socialism is a good idea for themselves rather than have it forced on them.

Also, I don't get your comment about health care. Cuba actually has a very good health care system. The average life expectancy is slightly higher than in the USA (the only countries in the Americas with higher life expectancy are Chile and Canada--I guess the Cs all do well), and infant mortality rates are lower than some industrialized countries. It isn't a perfect system, of course, because Cuba is a very poor country. But honestly, I think it sounds infinitely superior to the barbaric system that the USA has. And that's not just because I'm left wing. I suspect that lots of Canadians would choose Cuba's health care system over the American one. Not the Cuban form of government, of course, but still the health care system.



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04 Aug 2011, 3:21 pm

I was in Cuba and in Havana and my impression was that people were generally happy. The one thing that I didn't like was that the bus queues were long and the buses packed but really it isn't so bad as some say it is.



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04 Aug 2011, 4:55 pm

bergie wrote:
Cuba has persisted against all odds for 55 years with the world's most powerful economic and military power doing everything it can to destroy it.

If we lifted our silly embargo, Cuba would thrive with their tourism, cigar, and sugar economy . Unfortunately a successful, Communist nation (besides China) would prove too many people wrong.


And herein lies the crux of the matter - a successful demonstration of communalism is too much for the capitalists to bear, hell their own exploited and abused poor may wish to try it themselves and they just won't allow that.


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04 Aug 2011, 7:03 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
Blue_Jackets_fan wrote:
Why shouldn't the far-left support Castro?

Castro supports communism, wiping out capitalistism (including myself), giving citizens free health (if you can call it health care), and so on. These are exactly what the far-left wants.

The reason some of the economically far left wouldn't support Cuba is because there are some people on the far left who believe in democracy. Believe it or not, some on the far left believe that people need to decide that socialism is a good idea for themselves rather than have it forced on them.

Also, I don't get your comment about health care. Cuba actually has a very good health care system. The average life expectancy is slightly higher than in the USA (the only countries in the Americas with higher life expectancy are Chile and Canada--I guess the Cs all do well), and infant mortality rates are lower than some industrialized countries. It isn't a perfect system, of course, because Cuba is a very poor country. But honestly, I think it sounds infinitely superior to the barbaric system that the USA has. And that's not just because I'm left wing. I suspect that lots of Canadians would choose Cuba's health care system over the American one. Not the Cuban form of government, of course, but still the health care system.


I just showed your post to a good friend of mine who were forced to fled Cuba with her family to the USA when she was 8 years old on a boat that could barely float.
I would just love to tell you what she said but I think I'm better off not to least I want to eat a ban here.
This is what health care is really like in Cuba (and no this isn't pictures of Nazi Death Camps)
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm