If it turned out your partner was transsexual...

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I dont think it would really even matter which bits I saw. It doesnt matter for me if the person is male, or mtf, or ftm - Any association with male gender just triggers that subconcious response. The point I was trying to make before is that whether I found out right away or months later, either way, it could never work. But there are certainly some for whom it would not be a problem. Laying the cards right out on the table and choosing those guys instead would probably be better for all involved, compared to someone "finding out" later.

OK so what you are saying is that it's not the physical that is a problem. The problem lies in someone having a DSM-IV listed condition for which they have been successfully treated. How would you feel if someone said to you that they could never enter into a relationship with you because they were repelled by the idea of you having A.S.? That would hurt, right? Prejudice is prejudice whichever way you look at it.

Indeed poor choice of word, it was mainly to get a rise out of Tuttle teehee. I'm sure there is some politically correct term I can use, "Those of uncertain gender" or something.



I found a blogpost on google on this topic as a whole, not much in there that hasn't already been stated in this thread and despite contradicting himself in an effort to appease both parties it's still a good post. He touches on the questions of sexuality in the last paragraph. Again it all boils down to the same issue, how the two parties view gender.
http://celticchimp.blogspot.com/2011/05/transexuals-and-disclosure.html



*innocent look* Perhaps I have failed to express my thoughts properly. Or maybe I am projecting from a male view point. My logic is as follows:

[1] (This is bound to be disputed) My masculinity and maleness is defined largely by my interactions with women - being desired by them and (oh the burdens of masculinity!) being useful to them. So my (perhaps flawed) projection is that a woman's femininity and femaleness would be defined by her interactions with men and importantly being desired by them.
[2] (Lets assume) For whatever reason the majority of straight men cannot feel desire for a transwoman knowing their biological history.
[3] (This one isn't nice and a bit of a headscratcher) The main reason a transwoman is not a woman is because most straight men do not accept them as such.
[4] This means surgical gender reassignment does not change ones gender and is therefore an exercise in futility.

I am sympathetic to the toils and troubles of being someone with gender dysphoria, but from my perspective surgery is not really an answer at all.

As an aside I had a conversation about this topic with a (straight male) acquaintance of mine today. He too was averse to the idea of sleeping with a transwoman, although he couldn't deconstruct exactly why, as I have tried to here. The conversation drifted to gay people. He put on a little play for my benefit.


Gay man coming out: "Hello world! I was born different! I AM GAY! Accept me as I am!

World: "ok"

-----Intermission-----

Transwoman: "Hello world! I was born different! I am a transwoman! Accept me as a woman!"

Skeptical male: "hold on you're not really a w-"

Transwoman: "You shut up!"

Wow!

Just "Wow!"...

I don't really think I have anything to say...

*Speechless*

Err.... would someone else care to have a go while I go and have a quiet meltdown somewhere?

EDIT: if you ignore the undermining of every feminist principle for the last 100 years in the above, all of it is predicated on the assumption that transwomen are, in some way, identifiable. I've worked in highly public jobs where even the hint of my past could have caused problems and no-one has ever batted an eyelid at me. I accept that I'm lucky, but by your logic: I interact the same with men as any other straight women (with aspies) (so I tick box 1); you don't know my gender history unless I choose to disclose it (so I tick box 2); since you cant identify me as being trans, there is no issue of acceptance (so I tick box 3); point 4 is a deductive statement based on the 3 prior points and, therefore, fails. Thus, by your own logic, in what way am I not female?

Last edited by rlb on 12 Aug 2011, 12:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Hey my understanding of gender is no stranger than your "you are who you think you are" philosophy.

please read the edit in my last answer to you

You're right.


So if a man does not interact with women, or perhaps anyone in a romantic sense, they are not male or masculine?


It is flawed. See above for why this is so.


So straight men get say over what is true and what is not? So we should have a heterocentric patriarchal society again?


Surgery is meant to alter one's sex characteristics, not their gender. Their gender is what causes the misalignment in the first place.


Go back further in history and you'll see it probably played out like this:

Gay man coming out: 'Hello world! I was born different! I AM GAY! Accept me as I am!

World: 'No you aren't. You're pretending to be gay to try and rebel against society.'

Gay man: 'No, I'm gay. I love men.'

World: 'No you don't. For rebelling against nature, we'll treat you like a second-class citizen.'

-Intermission-

Transwoman: 'Hello world! I was born different! I am a transwoman! Accept me as a woman!'

Skeptical male: 'No you aren't. You're actually a man.'

Transwoman: 'I was born male, but I feel wrong in this body and feel better as a woman.'

Skeptical male: 'Well, you might feel better, but no one will go out with you now because you're a freak.'

transsexuality implies that it's a serious part of their identity and past, enough so to identify with it and undergo a sex change. i wouldn't react kindly if someone were to hide this from me.

I think you're missing the point. Most transsexuals don't want to be associated with their past, which is why they transitioned in the first place.

why would I want a partner I knew nothing about? that's my point.

They would probably tell you a lot about themselves if you were close, but they may not refer to their birth sex, much like someone born with a facial deformity may not refer to that.

That is incredibly flawed even for me and I'm a ciswoman who isn't a lesbian.
1. I'm female. I'm not feminine. I don't want to be feminine.
2. My femaleness is not at all defined with interactions with men, its defined if anything to do with others by my mothering nature.
3. It's common for females to not want to be desired by men, even when they're straight. At least I've read stuff that says that - whether or not something is in a relationship.
4. I feel any identity based off of interactions with others is incredibly flawed. If you lock me in a room without any other people I'm still female.

So is someone with XY chromosomes but born with a female body male or female?

And someone who's been raped doesn't want to associate with the past. But the fact that someone has been raped, or that someone has gone through transitioning, is still relevant to who they are now.

gender and sex is a HUGE thing in society. it's part of someone's identity. on the inside and out and how people treat you. it isn't a huge deal for everyone, like me, but it would be a big deal for someone who underwent a sex change, or they wouldn't have done so in the first place. someone neglecting to tell me something like that would indicate lack of intimacy or closeness. unless this topic is purely about hook-ups or casual sex, in which case my posts are a bit more irrelevant.

So therefore you have a right to know about it...?