aren't retarded people the opposite of autistic people?

Page 4 of 6 [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 51
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

18 Feb 2012, 11:08 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Again, Raven’s Matrices is only testing one type of intelligence. It has been known for a long time that those with autism tend to have a higher performance IQ than a verbal one.

If your overall IQ is below the threshold for mental retardation, you're still mentally retarded. You'll need help with the things that push you down below that level in schooling. That's the purpose of it all, which is telling others the help one needs.


Your understanding of this is both extremely dogmatic and incorrect. Look at Sora's post at the top of page four for a more detailed explanation. And perhaps you could read those studies Michelle Dawson was involved in.



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,941

19 Feb 2012, 12:37 am

Verdandi wrote:
aghogday,

The study you cited from the CDC continues to propagate the same errors that the 2006 paper called out in pointing out that such high intellectual disability rates in the autistic population have not been empirically validated. When the method used to get the scores is the problem that is criticized, using that method to test autistic children doesn't mean you're getting empirical data that demonstrates anything more than the fact that IQ tests are (unintentionally) written in such a manner as to emphasize autistic weaknesses.

Also, Michele Dawson participated in two studies involving IQ testing of autistic children - the first one was for those diagnosed with autism. The second one, the one you refer to, determined that people diagnosed with AS show a pattern similar to that demonstrated by those diagnosed with autism. From the article you linked:

Quote:
Researchers discovered Asperger’s individuals’ scores are much higher when they are evaluated by a test called Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which encompasses reasoning, novel problem-solving abilities, and high-level abstraction.

By comparison, scores for non-Asperger’s individuals are much more consistent across different tests. Interestingly, Asperger participants’ performance on Raven’s Matrices was associated with their strongest peaks of performance on the traditional Wechsler.

A previous study by the same group found very similar results for autistic individuals as well, whose peaks of ability are perceptual, rather than verbal as in Asperger individuals.

This observation suggests that individuals with autism spectrum disorders have a common information processing mechanism for different aspects of information (verbal vs. perceptual).

According to co-author Michelle Dawson, “while we know autistics process information atypically, very little thought has gone into how to fairly assess their abilities. In fact, there is so little understanding of what autistics do well that their strong abilities are often regarded as dysfunctional.


When the article says "non-Asperger's individuals" they don't mean autistic. They mean neurotypical controls.


I agree with your interpretation of the article; the first paragraph I bolded suggested that the test was only necessary for the Aspergers group; I was able to track down the original research paper to see that they didn't test both groups in this particular study, but they did refer back to the older study.

Interestingly though, the general article does not give a full representation of the research referenced and conducted.

Aspergers children did not score significantly Higher on the Raven Progressive Matrices test vs the Weschler full scale intelligence test than did the non-aspergers children control group.

Quote:
Compared with the RPM-Wechsler discrepancies found for the Asperger adults, the discrepancies found for the Asperger children were less marked. Their average performance was at the 59th percentile on RPM and the 52nd percentile on Wechsler FSIQ. Non-Asperger children obtained almost identical average RPM and FSIQ scores, at the 72nd and 69th percentile. The discrepancy between the two tests was not significantly different in Asperger children and non-Asperger children, U = 307.0, p = .58.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0025372


It was the Asperger Adults that scored significantly higher. The Aspergers children actually scored higher on the Verbal Intelligence quotient part of the Weschler Full Scale Intelligence test than they did on the Raven Progressive Matrices test. Their only weakness was in Performance IQ. This is completely opposite from what is suggested in the general article, it focuses on the adults studied, not the children.

So, the study showed no advantage of testing the Aspergers children with the Raven Progressive Matrices test, other than establishing a baseline to see how well they score on that test as Adults, and a slightly higher overall IQ score, of an average of 103 as opposed to 101 with the full scale intelligence test.

In fact, there would be more advantage to the Non-Aspergers adults to be tested using the Raven Progressive Matrices test, because they scored an IQ of 113 with the Raven Matrices test as opposed to an IQ of 107 with the full scale intelligence test.

And, in reference to this, the Aspergers adults scored a 109 IQ on the Progressive Matrice tests as opposed to 99 for the Full Scale Intelligence test. So, while the percentiles might look impressive. the difference in IQ points for the Adult asperger group and the Adult non-asperger group, is about 4 IQ points. It's significant, but it doesn't mean that much in the real world.

The most interesting thing that I see is, that it appears that fluid intelligence may be increased in Aspergers adults, through neuroplasticity, rather than any significant innate advantage in fluid intelligence. It appears that this may be the case for this group of Non-Asperger Adults as well, although not as significant.

With those measured as Autistic, in the previous study, it appears that their fluid intelligence, on average, is innately significantly higher than full scale measures of intelligence; that makes logical sense though, because clinically significant verbal delays are not part of Aspergers. Those differences are clearly seen in the results from the children with Aspergers in the most recent study.

A lack of verbal abilities in Autistic children can be disabling, by itself, for autistic children or adults.

The issue with IQ testing, is, that verbal intelligence is a part of overall intelligence as well as Performance IQ, that has been studied to influence the difficulties one may have in the school environment. If the developmental disabilities in this area are not identified, through appropriate IQ tests, the child may not receive the help that is needed in special education, nor potential financial assistance from SSA.

Raven matrices tests and other measures of IQ testing, must be used in children with severe verbal/communication impairments, because they cannot be tested using the traditional testing methods. Obviously, though, their developmental disabilities have been identified, by very nature of the fact that they prevent them from being assessed with traditional tests.

I can see a benefit in testing all individuals diagnosed with ASD's to see if they have strengths in the area of fluid intelligence, that overshadow their weaknesses in other areas. However, the weaknesses must be tested and identified as well. There are already guidelines for testing those with severe communication difficulties with alternative testing methods, including those with Autism.

It is clear to see in the graph for children with Aspergers that took the traditional IQ tests, that while they emphasized the weakness in Performance Intelligence, they also emphasized the strength in verbal intelligence above and beyond that of the Raven Performance Matrices test.

Traditional IQ tests are written to show weaknesses among all individuals, whether they have Autism, Down Syndrome, or any other disorder, that might be associated with developmental disabilities. Alternative tests are already utilized as needed. But as evidenced the traditional tests show strengths in verbal IQ in children with Aspergers beyond that of the alternative tests like the Raven progressive matrices test.

There are no easy or perfect answers, but the empirical data as provided by the government is peer reviewed evidence, that is accepted at this point, as the best overall indication of intellectual disability, co-morbid, with about 41% of individuals with Autism. A higher score on the Raven Performance Matrices tests are not going to make those intellectual disabilities associated with verbal and performance IQ, go away, that the Raven Performance matrices test does not test for.



aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,941

19 Feb 2012, 1:39 am

Verdandi wrote:
Also, this article goes into more detail:

http://www.autismtoday.com/articles/Hid ... .asp?cat=1

Quote:
Volunteers completed an age-appropriate IQ test and a Raven's Progressive Matrices test. The latter test includes 60 items, each consisting of a series of related geometric designs and a choice of six or eight alternative designs, one of which completes the series.

The nonautistic children and adults scored slightly above the population average on both tests.

In contrast, autistic kids and adults scored far higher on the Raven's test than they did on the IQ tests. These youngsters' average IQ was substantially below the population average, but their average score on the Raven's test was in the normal range.

One-third of autistic children qualified as "low functioning" by IQ, but only 5 percent did so by Raven's scores. Moreover, another third of the autistic children achieved "high intelligence" on the Raven's test.


The excerpt you provide from the article here was related to the first study, referenced in the tables from the last link I provided.

The commentary in this article, a little further down from what you quote here, makes the same point I was making, in the previous post. A higher Raven's scores for Autistic Individuals with co-morbid intellectual developmental disabilities, does not make them go away.

Nor, does it give an idea of which areas of intellectual development educators should look for to direct their efforts to provide the assistance that is needed in classes for those with intellectual developmental disabilities. A politically correct term for MR.

Per the methodology used by the government, the eight year old Autistic children, measured as having IQ's lower than 70, are identified from the school environment for children with Intellectual Developmental Disabilities.

They could test all those children with Raven Matrices tests, but potentially higher scores, on that one test for fluid intelligence, would make no difference in their current needs for education, in regard to their intellectual disabilities, already identified, that go well beyond measures of fluid intelligence. Nor, would it be considered a full measurement of their intelligence.

Quote:
The Raven's test may measure autistic intelligence better than an IQ test does, adds psychologist Helen Tager-Flusberg of Boston University. Nonetheless, many autistic children are extremely impaired intellectually, she says.



Dillogic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Nov 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,770

19 Feb 2012, 1:43 am

Verdandi wrote:
Your understanding of this is both extremely dogmatic and incorrect. Look at Sora's post at the top of page four for a more detailed explanation. And perhaps you could read those studies Michelle Dawson was involved in.


I'd need a reason for why it's extremely incorrect.

Sora is just discussing environmental and external stimuli that may affect the score of someone with an ASD. This is possible for all people. I've read Dawson's paper, the one where she uses Raven's. Again (again, again and again), that's only testing one form of intelligence (performance). Verbal intelligence is just as important in regards to schooling. If verbal intelligence is low, it needs to be recognized in the individual so they can get help for schooling in that facet.

The standard IQ test tests performance and verbal.

I actually have the unique position in being given a performance IQ test as a child, for the reason why I couldn't read nor write. It came up as "high", and the psycho just said I was lazy and didn't want to learn. The reason why I couldn't read nor write was due to having a poor verbal IQ (it's still below average). I eventually got it a few years later, but there you go. Give a test to someone who is good at that type of test, and you run into problems.



heavenlyabyss
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Sep 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,393

19 Feb 2012, 6:15 am

I find this a little offensive actually.

People with IQ's of 70 or lower (I think that is the number) are given the damaging label of being "retarded". Personally, I find the label offensive.

Some people with autism, even autistic savants, have low IQ's.

I think classifying people as "retarded" is just a way of putting them down, and serves no real person.



Sora
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Gender: Female
Posts: 4,906
Location: Europe

19 Feb 2012, 10:10 am

Dillogic wrote:
Sora is just discussing environmental and external stimuli that may affect the score of someone with an ASD. This is possible for all people.


Ah, okay, I think I understand the conversation better now. So, I'm not sure what it's like elsewhere, but:

the thing is that environments in which IQ testing usually takes place are not adjusted to the needs of developmentally delayed children (and adults). That is the case especially when the person being tested is impaired in the area of communication which affects communication so severely - even temporarily because of present external stimuli that affect the person's verbal performance - that the professional administering the testing will not learn of that this is the case during testing from the person themselves who cannot tell (or cannot tell at that moment), their parents or therapists or by learning of the causes of the person's state of distress.

Now, if the IQ test would point out that certain that were present during testing are disruptions then the test would have a suitable diagnostic side that is needed for testing communication impaired and/or developmentally delayed children a but this is usually not the case.

I'm not sure what it is like in other Western countries but here in Germany, IQ testing does not usually take place in an environment that is familiar to the child being tested (the same goes for adults, of course). Furthermore, the professional administering the testing does only meet the child or adult they're going to test but they're not made familiar with known communication oddities or whatever concerns the child/adult that others interacting with them for a couple of hours will need to know because it concerns sensory, adaptive skills or the possibility of plain bathroom accidents during the testing and how that doesn't need to managed in a way that unsettled the child and the professional testing them.

To put it plainly, an autistic kid have their routines disrupted with or without an announcement of that happening, have to hop into the car or go by public transportation to places they and at times when they're usually at school or having a therapy, have to engage into lengthy contact and conversation with a stranger in an environment that they don't know and that may at worst be full of stimuli that go from slightly bothersome to painful. Who'd know? Unless someone communicates this for the child because lucky they know of it, then these common circumstances will influence the IQ test's results.

This is both distressing and exciting for most children with or without impairments (and usually slightly affects the scores of children and teens who definitely have impairments an intellectual disability/MR, a low muscle tone/severely impaired coordination or who have severe behaviour issues because of which testing them is difficult or impossible) but this way of having an IQ test done is especially problematic to (generally speaking) autistic people due to the nature of ASDs. That's usually not of interest though because it doesn't affect other group's scores as much as the scores of autistic people (and some more) can be affected.


_________________
Autism + ADHD
______
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. Terry Pratchett


naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 65
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,005
Location: temperate zone

19 Feb 2012, 10:28 am

Its great that the OP is found of retarded people. And its great that you and they gain mutual benifit from each other's company.

And actually I can relate indirectly- growing up it was hard for me to make friends and when I did it tended to be with deviant fringe people -though not retarded people so much.

But retardation and autism are like diabetes and bone fractures- neiher alike nor "opposite" except for the fact that they are alike in that they are both disablities.

There is a rare condition called "Williams Syndrom" in which the sufferer has a compulsion to socialize every moment. It is sometimes described as "the opposite of autism".

ADD I think is also in many ways the "opposite of autism" though some people are diagnosed with both.

One of my few friends as a teenager was a guy I gravitated to becaues he was my opposite in many way. And looking back I think he may well have had ADD or ADHD.



rabbitears
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jan 2011
Age: 28
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,398
Location: In a box of chocolate milk mix.

19 Feb 2012, 1:48 pm

felinesaresuperior wrote:
and don't you just love them? i think retarded people are sweet and mellow with a sunny side to them. they're honest and kind and bond with animals.
i wonder if other autistic people like retarded people, too, and feel more comfortable around them and feel some kind of bonding with them, like i do. and do you think they're the opposite of us? we're tempermental, they're docile. we have a higher intelligence level and they have a lower one. we're hyper and prone to frustration, they're calm. we're suspicious and they're trusting, (too damn trusting for their own good, sometimes. there are all kind of sickos out there). we get bored quickly, they're content in doing boring chores. we're unfriendly to strangers, they're super friendly and open.


Bullshit.


_________________
:albino: THINGS I LIKE :albino:
Parasaurolophus, Plesiosaurs, Dinosaurs, Pterosaurs, Music, Tuna, Chocolate milk, Oreos, Blue things

Parasaurolophuscolobus. Parasaurcolobus. Colobusaurolophus.
....And Nunchucks are my friends.


MONKEY
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Jan 2009
Age: 27
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,896
Location: Stoke, England (sometimes :P)

19 Feb 2012, 2:10 pm

Image

No no no just no, the most ridiculous thing is about autistics not being trusting, we very much are and that's our problem! One of the main symptoms is taking things at face value, ask any autistic that had a hard time at school and you will know.

The rest of it is actually... just as crap.


_________________
What film do atheists watch on Christmas?
Coincidence on 34th street.


Ganondox
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Oct 2011
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,734
Location: USA

19 Feb 2012, 2:13 pm

aghogday wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
aghogday,

The study you cited from the CDC continues to propagate the same errors that the 2006 paper called out in pointing out that such high intellectual disability rates in the autistic population have not been empirically validated. When the method used to get the scores is the problem that is criticized, using that method to test autistic children doesn't mean you're getting empirical data that demonstrates anything more than the fact that IQ tests are (unintentionally) written in such a manner as to emphasize autistic weaknesses.

Also, Michele Dawson participated in two studies involving IQ testing of autistic children - the first one was for those diagnosed with autism. The second one, the one you refer to, determined that people diagnosed with AS show a pattern similar to that demonstrated by those diagnosed with autism. From the article you linked:

Quote:
Researchers discovered Asperger’s individuals’ scores are much higher when they are evaluated by a test called Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which encompasses reasoning, novel problem-solving abilities, and high-level abstraction.

By comparison, scores for non-Asperger’s individuals are much more consistent across different tests. Interestingly, Asperger participants’ performance on Raven’s Matrices was associated with their strongest peaks of performance on the traditional Wechsler.

A previous study by the same group found very similar results for autistic individuals as well, whose peaks of ability are perceptual, rather than verbal as in Asperger individuals.

This observation suggests that individuals with autism spectrum disorders have a common information processing mechanism for different aspects of information (verbal vs. perceptual).

According to co-author Michelle Dawson, “while we know autistics process information atypically, very little thought has gone into how to fairly assess their abilities. In fact, there is so little understanding of what autistics do well that their strong abilities are often regarded as dysfunctional.


When the article says "non-Asperger's individuals" they don't mean autistic. They mean neurotypical controls.


I agree with your interpretation of the article; the first paragraph I bolded suggested that the test was only necessary for the Aspergers group; I was able to track down the original research paper to see that they didn't test both groups in this particular study, but they did refer back to the older study.

Interestingly though, the general article does not give a full representation of the research referenced and conducted.

Aspergers children did not score significantly Higher on the Raven Progressive Matrices test vs the Weschler full scale intelligence test than did the non-aspergers children control group.

Quote:
Compared with the RPM-Wechsler discrepancies found for the Asperger adults, the discrepancies found for the Asperger children were less marked. Their average performance was at the 59th percentile on RPM and the 52nd percentile on Wechsler FSIQ. Non-Asperger children obtained almost identical average RPM and FSIQ scores, at the 72nd and 69th percentile. The discrepancy between the two tests was not significantly different in Asperger children and non-Asperger children, U = 307.0, p = .58.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0025372


It was the Asperger Adults that scored significantly higher. The Aspergers children actually scored higher on the Verbal Intelligence quotient part of the Weschler Full Scale Intelligence test than they did on the Raven Progressive Matrices test. Their only weakness was in Performance IQ. This is completely opposite from what is suggested in the general article, it focuses on the adults studied, not the children.

So, the study showed no advantage of testing the Aspergers children with the Raven Progressive Matrices test, other than establishing a baseline to see how well they score on that test as Adults, and a slightly higher overall IQ score, of an average of 103 as opposed to 101 with the full scale intelligence test.

In fact, there would be more advantage to the Non-Aspergers adults to be tested using the Raven Progressive Matrices test, because they scored an IQ of 113 with the Raven Matrices test as opposed to an IQ of 107 with the full scale intelligence test.

And, in reference to this, the Aspergers adults scored a 109 IQ on the Progressive Matrice tests as opposed to 99 for the Full Scale Intelligence test. So, while the percentiles might look impressive. the difference in IQ points for the Adult asperger group and the Adult non-asperger group, is about 4 IQ points. It's significant, but it doesn't mean that much in the real world.

The most interesting thing that I see is, that it appears that fluid intelligence may be increased in Aspergers adults, through neuroplasticity, rather than any significant innate advantage in fluid intelligence. It appears that this may be the case for this group of Non-Asperger Adults as well, although not as significant.

With those measured as Autistic, in the previous study, it appears that their fluid intelligence, on average, is innately significantly higher than full scale measures of intelligence; that makes logical sense though, because clinically significant verbal delays are not part of Aspergers. Those differences are clearly seen in the results from the children with Aspergers in the most recent study.

A lack of verbal abilities in Autistic children can be disabling, by itself, for autistic children or adults.

The issue with IQ testing, is, that verbal intelligence is a part of overall intelligence as well as Performance IQ, that has been studied to influence the difficulties one may have in the school environment. If the developmental disabilities in this area are not identified, through appropriate IQ tests, the child may not receive the help that is needed in special education, nor potential financial assistance from SSA.

Raven matrices tests and other measures of IQ testing, must be used in children with severe verbal/communication impairments, because they cannot be tested using the traditional testing methods. Obviously, though, their developmental disabilities have been identified, by very nature of the fact that they prevent them from being assessed with traditional tests.

I can see a benefit in testing all individuals diagnosed with ASD's to see if they have strengths in the area of fluid intelligence, that overshadow their weaknesses in other areas. However, the weaknesses must be tested and identified as well. There are already guidelines for testing those with severe communication difficulties with alternative testing methods, including those with Autism.

It is clear to see in the graph for children with Aspergers that took the traditional IQ tests, that while they emphasized the weakness in Performance Intelligence, they also emphasized the strength in verbal intelligence above and beyond that of the Raven Performance Matrices test.

Traditional IQ tests are written to show weaknesses among all individuals, whether they have Autism, Down Syndrome, or any other disorder, that might be associated with developmental disabilities. Alternative tests are already utilized as needed. But as evidenced the traditional tests show strengths in verbal IQ in children with Aspergers beyond that of the alternative tests like the Raven progressive matrices test.

There are no easy or perfect answers, but the empirical data as provided by the government is peer reviewed evidence, that is accepted at this point, as the best overall indication of intellectual disability, co-morbid, with about 41% of individuals with Autism. A higher score on the Raven Performance Matrices tests are not going to make those intellectual disabilities associated with verbal and performance IQ, go away, that the Raven Performance matrices test does not test for.


I honestly don't give a damn what one study suggests, the results on these topics are extremely inconsistent from one study to the next. In another Japanese study CHILDREN with Aspergers had significantly higher fluid intelligience than their peers. Are you gonna discredit that and just stick to the evidence provided by this study?


_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html


Ganondox
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Oct 2011
Age: 24
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,734
Location: USA

19 Feb 2012, 2:30 pm

Verdandi wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
Callista wrote:
.

I am not saying that autistic people don't have the same pattern of problems in school/problems with adaptive skills that people with mental retardation do. Of course, we do.


Excuse me, but I do not have these problems. There is no "of course we do". We have our own problems, they have their own problems, we are not just retards who tend to score higher on certain IQ tests.


A lot of us do have many similar or overlapping problems. There's a functioning scale (not GAF) that actually identifies that a lot of autistic people tend to have self-care scores that are well below their tested IQ, and have challenges that are often quite comparable to people who are intellectually disabled.


First I will apologize for the way I phrased that, I realize it is both offensive to mentally retarded people and autistic people with similar problems. I did not mean to imply there was no overlap in the problems for anyone, I'm just meant to say that not all of us have problems in these areas and instead have problems in other areas.


_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes

Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html


aghogday
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Nov 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,941

19 Feb 2012, 5:49 pm

Ganondox wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
aghogday,

The study you cited from the CDC continues to propagate the same errors that the 2006 paper called out in pointing out that such high intellectual disability rates in the autistic population have not been empirically validated. When the method used to get the scores is the problem that is criticized, using that method to test autistic children doesn't mean you're getting empirical data that demonstrates anything more than the fact that IQ tests are (unintentionally) written in such a manner as to emphasize autistic weaknesses.

Also, Michele Dawson participated in two studies involving IQ testing of autistic children - the first one was for those diagnosed with autism. The second one, the one you refer to, determined that people diagnosed with AS show a pattern similar to that demonstrated by those diagnosed with autism. From the article you linked:

Quote:
Researchers discovered Asperger’s individuals’ scores are much higher when they are evaluated by a test called Raven’s Progressive Matrices, which encompasses reasoning, novel problem-solving abilities, and high-level abstraction.

By comparison, scores for non-Asperger’s individuals are much more consistent across different tests. Interestingly, Asperger participants’ performance on Raven’s Matrices was associated with their strongest peaks of performance on the traditional Wechsler.

A previous study by the same group found very similar results for autistic individuals as well, whose peaks of ability are perceptual, rather than verbal as in Asperger individuals.

This observation suggests that individuals with autism spectrum disorders have a common information processing mechanism for different aspects of information (verbal vs. perceptual).

According to co-author Michelle Dawson, “while we know autistics process information atypically, very little thought has gone into how to fairly assess their abilities. In fact, there is so little understanding of what autistics do well that their strong abilities are often regarded as dysfunctional.


When the article says "non-Asperger's individuals" they don't mean autistic. They mean neurotypical controls.


I agree with your interpretation of the article; the first paragraph I bolded suggested that the test was only necessary for the Aspergers group; I was able to track down the original research paper to see that they didn't test both groups in this particular study, but they did refer back to the older study.

Interestingly though, the general article does not give a full representation of the research referenced and conducted.

Aspergers children did not score significantly Higher on the Raven Progressive Matrices test vs the Weschler full scale intelligence test than did the non-aspergers children control group.

Quote:
Compared with the RPM-Wechsler discrepancies found for the Asperger adults, the discrepancies found for the Asperger children were less marked. Their average performance was at the 59th percentile on RPM and the 52nd percentile on Wechsler FSIQ. Non-Asperger children obtained almost identical average RPM and FSIQ scores, at the 72nd and 69th percentile. The discrepancy between the two tests was not significantly different in Asperger children and non-Asperger children, U = 307.0, p = .58.


http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0025372


It was the Asperger Adults that scored significantly higher. The Aspergers children actually scored higher on the Verbal Intelligence quotient part of the Weschler Full Scale Intelligence test than they did on the Raven Progressive Matrices test. Their only weakness was in Performance IQ. This is completely opposite from what is suggested in the general article, it focuses on the adults studied, not the children.

So, the study showed no advantage of testing the Aspergers children with the Raven Progressive Matrices test, other than establishing a baseline to see how well they score on that test as Adults, and a slightly higher overall IQ score, of an average of 103 as opposed to 101 with the full scale intelligence test.

In fact, there would be more advantage to the Non-Aspergers adults to be tested using the Raven Progressive Matrices test, because they scored an IQ of 113 with the Raven Matrices test as opposed to an IQ of 107 with the full scale intelligence test.

And, in reference to this, the Aspergers adults scored a 109 IQ on the Progressive Matrice tests as opposed to 99 for the Full Scale Intelligence test. So, while the percentiles might look impressive. the difference in IQ points for the Adult asperger group and the Adult non-asperger group, is about 4 IQ points. It's significant, but it doesn't mean that much in the real world.

The most interesting thing that I see is, that it appears that fluid intelligence may be increased in Aspergers adults, through neuroplasticity, rather than any significant innate advantage in fluid intelligence. It appears that this may be the case for this group of Non-Asperger Adults as well, although not as significant.

With those measured as Autistic, in the previous study, it appears that their fluid intelligence, on average, is innately significantly higher than full scale measures of intelligence; that makes logical sense though, because clinically significant verbal delays are not part of Aspergers. Those differences are clearly seen in the results from the children with Aspergers in the most recent study.

A lack of verbal abilities in Autistic children can be disabling, by itself, for autistic children or adults.

The issue with IQ testing, is, that verbal intelligence is a part of overall intelligence as well as Performance IQ, that has been studied to influence the difficulties one may have in the school environment. If the developmental disabilities in this area are not identified, through appropriate IQ tests, the child may not receive the help that is needed in special education, nor potential financial assistance from SSA.

Raven matrices tests and other measures of IQ testing, must be used in children with severe verbal/communication impairments, because they cannot be tested using the traditional testing methods. Obviously, though, their developmental disabilities have been identified, by very nature of the fact that they prevent them from being assessed with traditional tests.

I can see a benefit in testing all individuals diagnosed with ASD's to see if they have strengths in the area of fluid intelligence, that overshadow their weaknesses in other areas. However, the weaknesses must be tested and identified as well. There are already guidelines for testing those with severe communication difficulties with alternative testing methods, including those with Autism.

It is clear to see in the graph for children with Aspergers that took the traditional IQ tests, that while they emphasized the weakness in Performance Intelligence, they also emphasized the strength in verbal intelligence above and beyond that of the Raven Performance Matrices test.

Traditional IQ tests are written to show weaknesses among all individuals, whether they have Autism, Down Syndrome, or any other disorder, that might be associated with developmental disabilities. Alternative tests are already utilized as needed. But as evidenced the traditional tests show strengths in verbal IQ in children with Aspergers beyond that of the alternative tests like the Raven progressive matrices test.

There are no easy or perfect answers, but the empirical data as provided by the government is peer reviewed evidence, that is accepted at this point, as the best overall indication of intellectual disability, co-morbid, with about 41% of individuals with Autism. A higher score on the Raven Performance Matrices tests are not going to make those intellectual disabilities associated with verbal and performance IQ, go away, that the Raven Performance matrices test does not test for.


I honestly don't give a damn what one study suggests, the results on these topics are extremely inconsistent from one study to the next. In another Japanese study CHILDREN with Aspergers had significantly higher fluid intelligience than their peers. Are you gonna discredit that and just stick to the evidence provided by this study?


http://www.freewebs.com/adiscussion/Superior%20fluid%20intelligence%20in%20children%20with%20Asperger's%20disorder.pdf

The study you referenced, that I link above, was done in a different country with a different methodology. Raw scores were used, instead of percentiles, and there was no attempt to match performance in the Weschler test with that of the Raven Matrices test.

The limitation was that is was only one study of 17 children, as identified in that study. The more recent study was significantly larger and included adults and children with Aspergers. The non-aspergers peers scored significantly lower in every measure of intelligence in both groups.

The only area of any of the research in the US done in either of the two studies by Dawson, where autistics scored higher than non-autistic peers in Intelligence, was in classic autism on the Raven Matrices test for Adults, in 2007. The percentile score was slightly higher, but the IQ gained from those percentiles was almost identical.

The test in Japan needs to be replicated using a larger study, with that methodology, in that country. Fluid Intelligence can be influenced by both learning and culture. The Japanese are exposed to mathematics at a younger age than individuals in the US, so this could play a role, in that particular country, as well as other cultural elements, specific to children with Aspergers.



Last edited by aghogday on 19 Feb 2012, 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DreamLord
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 72
Location: Manchester, UK

19 Feb 2012, 6:37 pm

I find average IQ people tiresome sometimes, retarded people I just avoid or keep the interactions brief with.

Maybe I expect too much from people, it does annoy me how the default setting of the vast majority of humans seems to be an aggressive ignorance characterised by a strong belief in their presumed moral superiority to anybody who questions their worldview.

I suppose retards aren't so bad really, certainly not as irksome as some self professed intellectuals who take all of their political direction from Karl Marx's ideological offspring.



Orr
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 569

19 Feb 2012, 9:18 pm

DreamLord wrote:
I find average IQ people tiresome sometimes, retarded people I just avoid or keep the interactions brief with.



I have similar reactions when faced with cerebral narcissists. They are retarded too, in their own way, so I try not to ignore them, but they are very boring.


_________________
'You seem very clever at explaining words, Sir,' said Alice. 'Would you kindly tell me the meaning of the poem called "Jabberwocky"?'


DreamLord
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 72
Location: Manchester, UK

25 Feb 2012, 3:35 am

Orr wrote:
DreamLord wrote:
I find average IQ people tiresome sometimes, retarded people I just avoid or keep the interactions brief with.



I have similar reactions when faced with cerebral narcissists. They are retarded too, in their own way, so I try not to ignore them, but they are very boring.


I'm not a cerebral narcissist, the source of my dislike comes from my belief that I don't consider myself to be greatly intelligent and yet most people are less. It is quite depressing to realise the world is in the hands of people less capable than somebody I consider to be fairly useless.



northbrbrain
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 45

25 Feb 2012, 4:07 am

felinesaresuperior wrote:
and don't you just love them? i think retarded people are sweet and mellow with a sunny side to them. they're honest and kind and bond with animals.
i wonder if other autistic people like retarded people, too, and feel more comfortable around them and feel some kind of bonding with them, like i do. and do you think they're the opposite of us? we're tempermental, they're docile. we have a higher intelligence level and they have a lower one. we're hyper and prone to frustration, they're calm. we're suspicious and they're trusting, (too damn trusting for their own good, sometimes. there are all kind of sickos out there). we get bored quickly, they're content in doing boring chores. we're unfriendly to strangers, they're super friendly and open.


i've met some intellectually disabled people over the years and found you can't lump them into one big personality group. However, one thing i found (unfortunately) is that being intellectually disabled doesn't necessarily mean they will miss the Aspie faux pas. For example, "slow" people pick up on little social blunders, even if it is something as slight as a body language gaffe. If they sense something is off, they may not be able to express it but still pick up on it. Someone with an intellectual disability is not necessarily trusting; people have told them not to talk to strangers, and if you want to befriend them it may still be a challenge, because their caregivers have to "approve" of the friendship, in a sense.