The Downfall of the Western World...
10 Aug 2011, 7:53 pm
This is meant to be a discussion about why the quality of life is going down in the Western world (Europe and the United States). Does anyone have any reasons/theories/observations on why?
I have two main observations mainly concerning the United States:
1) We do not have enough manufacturing jobs and rely almost solely on consumerism rather than production.
2) The government is too top heavy and large to be efficient with resources. There are so many organizations that need financial support to keep going that money for more vital resources is limited.
I am not educated enough to comment on Europe. I know that many European countries are having their own share of difficulties.
10 Aug 2011, 8:02 pm
techn0teen wrote:
This is meant to be a discussion about why the quality of life is going down in the Western world (Europe and the United States). Does anyone have any reasons/theories/observations on why?
I have two main observations mainly concerning the United States:
1) We do not have enough manufacturing jobs and rely almost solely on consumerism rather than production.
2) The government is too top heavy and large to be efficient with resources. There are so many organizations that need financial support to keep going that money for more vital resources is limited.
I am not educated enough to comment on Europe. I know that many European countries are having their own share of difficulties.
I have two main observations mainly concerning the United States:
1) We do not have enough manufacturing jobs and rely almost solely on consumerism rather than production.
2) The government is too top heavy and large to be efficient with resources. There are so many organizations that need financial support to keep going that money for more vital resources is limited.
I am not educated enough to comment on Europe. I know that many European countries are having their own share of difficulties.
We could always go back to agriculture. The U.S. is the most agriculturally productive nation in the world. And unless eating has gone out of style elsewhere, we will always have a market.
ruveyn
techstepgenr8tion
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10 Aug 2011, 9:49 pm
Is quality of life declining in the western world?
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“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
10 Aug 2011, 10:37 pm
Declines always happen faster than rises, and the rise of Western civilization was very fast, only took 500 years and the majority of that change was in the years 1800 to 2000. So I think it will be EXTREMELY fast and traumatic though hopefully we will build a much better and sustainable civilization on top of it.
10 Aug 2011, 11:12 pm
I don't particularly want a manufacturing job, but I'd agree that the government is top heavy. I haven't particularly noticed my quality of life declining recently, despite definitely falling into the lower end of the income scale.
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11 Aug 2011, 1:20 am
dopplercb wrote:
isn't there an aquifer (sp?) somewhere in the plains that, once it dries up, we won't be able to be the world's so-called bread basket anymore? or is this just some BS my dad keeps spouting off about?
There is no indication of anything like it. And if there is a water reservation that dries up somewhere, it would be a regional problem and would not effect the plains as a whole.
MarketAndChurch
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11 Aug 2011, 2:47 am
we are opting for environmental sustainability over economic growth(though many of them like to pair environmental justice with economic growth). Our quality of life will remain stagnant for a while before it falls off to second world standards. The focus on green technology, high density growth, fast trains and mass transit will kill us as they are not job producers, and the economy is central for a good quality of life.
Look to the city of Los Angeles. A once powerhouse for manufacturing during the cold war, and even after that no longer cares about it. It is attempting to unionize one of the two biggest ports on the west coast. Businesses are relocating out of the city at an alarming rate. Families are leaving for OC or San Diego, or out of state. They have the highest paid city council in America. 18,000 county workers earn more then 100,000 dollars a year. And now in the red and looking to revive the city, what does the mayor do? He doesn't attempt to revive LA's manufacturing core, that's for sure. He tries to be hip and cool, like every other mayor of a big city. It's all about luring the condo and highrise apartment builders, bringing a baseball team to town, a sexy bar district,
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_3_los-angeles.html
Quote:
A common complaint about Villaraigosa is his governing style, which many see as detached from long-term issues and focused on cultivating powerful friends, perhaps in preparation for a future Senate run. But a far greater problem has been the mayor’s single-minded emphasis on downtown development, especially high-density residential development. He has supported heavy subsidies and tax advantages for L.A. Live, a downtown entertainment complex, as well as for other projects in the area, and he has backed public investment in the surrounding infrastructure. He’s currently supporting a push to build a massive new downtown football stadium, even though L.A. has no professional football team, and to displace much of the taxpayer-backed Convention Center, which would presumably need to be rebuilt with public funds. And his biggest priority is to build the so-called subway to the sea, a $40 billion train that would connect downtown with the Pacific. All these government contracts feed the machine and its supporters.
This downtown push has done little to resuscitate the city’s economy, however, probably because it misses the entire point of Los Angeles, says Ali Modarres, chairman of the geography department at Cal State Los Angeles. Remember that L.A.’s economy is built on multiple cores, which operate largely independently of downtown. Downtown Los Angeles employs a mere 2.5 percent of the region’s workforce; New York’s central business districts, by contrast, employ roughly 20 percent. “To put the entire focus of development on downtown L.A.,” Modarres says, “is to ignore the historical, cultural, economic, social forces that have shaped the larger geography of this metropolitan area.”
This downtown push has done little to resuscitate the city’s economy, however, probably because it misses the entire point of Los Angeles, says Ali Modarres, chairman of the geography department at Cal State Los Angeles. Remember that L.A.’s economy is built on multiple cores, which operate largely independently of downtown. Downtown Los Angeles employs a mere 2.5 percent of the region’s workforce; New York’s central business districts, by contrast, employ roughly 20 percent. “To put the entire focus of development on downtown L.A.,” Modarres says, “is to ignore the historical, cultural, economic, social forces that have shaped the larger geography of this metropolitan area.”
LA is not alone. New York, Chicago, Memphis, Las Vegas, Detroit, Cleveland, and many other urban cores that was once a draw for the innovative, for families looking for upward mobility into the middle class, for businesses looking to relocate somewhere more friendly are now stagnant with a net-outflow of families, the middle class, workers, home owners, businesses, immigrant labor, etc. It's sad because they all follow the same failed policies, and when the renovate themselves, its to make themselves hip and sexy, not functional and viable for the working class and families. LA once had this approach, Austin and Houston carry's on that dream and is leading most big cities on almost every positive indicator of what makes a great city.
Salt Lake City seems to be doing it right as well with their reviving of their downtown core
Quote:
Of course, the fundamentally ecclesiastical logic diverges wildly from urbanist conventional wisdom. In most cities, planners embrace the idea of building the city core around singles, or "empty nesters." The nurturing of a "bohemian" culture--hopefully of the free-spending bourgeois variety--is seen as providing a spur to art galleries, bars, clubs and high-end restaurants.
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001 ... cred-space
Our cities are sick and uncompetitive. The youth's spirit of revival is not also paired with an attitude to work, or to take instruction well and humbly from those above you. We can't be competitive in the west if our cities are only focused on the green movement.
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11 Aug 2011, 4:31 am
MarketAndChurch wrote:
we are opting for environmental sustainability over economic growth(though many of them like to pair environmental justice with economic growth). Our quality of life will remain stagnant for a while before it falls off to second world standards. The focus on green technology, high density growth, fast trains and mass transit will kill us as they are not job producers, and the economy is central for a good quality of life.
Look to the city of Los Angeles. A once powerhouse for manufacturing during the cold war, and even after that no longer cares about it. It is attempting to unionize one of the two biggest ports on the west coast. Businesses are relocating out of the city at an alarming rate. Families are leaving for OC or San Diego, or out of state. They have the highest paid city council in America. 18,000 county workers earn more then 100,000 dollars a year. And now in the red and looking to revive the city, what does the mayor do? He doesn't attempt to revive LA's manufacturing core, that's for sure. He tries to be hip and cool, like every other mayor of a big city. It's all about luring the condo and highrise apartment builders, bringing a baseball team to town, a sexy bar district,
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_3_los-angeles.html
LA is not alone. New York, Chicago, Memphis, Las Vegas, Detroit, Cleveland, and many other urban cores that was once a draw for the innovative, for families looking for upward mobility into the middle class, for businesses looking to relocate somewhere more friendly are now stagnant with a net-outflow of families, the middle class, workers, home owners, businesses, immigrant labor, etc. It's sad because they all follow the same failed policies, and when the renovate themselves, its to make themselves hip and sexy, not functional and viable for the working class and families. LA once had this approach, Austin and Houston carry's on that dream and is leading most big cities on almost every positive indicator of what makes a great city.
Salt Lake City seems to be doing it right as well with their reviving of their downtown core
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001 ... cred-space
Our cities are sick and uncompetitive. The youth's spirit of revival is not also paired with an attitude to work, or to take instruction well and humbly from those above you. We can't be competitive in the west if our cities are only focused on the green movement.
Look to the city of Los Angeles. A once powerhouse for manufacturing during the cold war, and even after that no longer cares about it. It is attempting to unionize one of the two biggest ports on the west coast. Businesses are relocating out of the city at an alarming rate. Families are leaving for OC or San Diego, or out of state. They have the highest paid city council in America. 18,000 county workers earn more then 100,000 dollars a year. And now in the red and looking to revive the city, what does the mayor do? He doesn't attempt to revive LA's manufacturing core, that's for sure. He tries to be hip and cool, like every other mayor of a big city. It's all about luring the condo and highrise apartment builders, bringing a baseball team to town, a sexy bar district,
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_3_los-angeles.html
Quote:
A common complaint about Villaraigosa is his governing style, which many see as detached from long-term issues and focused on cultivating powerful friends, perhaps in preparation for a future Senate run. But a far greater problem has been the mayor’s single-minded emphasis on downtown development, especially high-density residential development. He has supported heavy subsidies and tax advantages for L.A. Live, a downtown entertainment complex, as well as for other projects in the area, and he has backed public investment in the surrounding infrastructure. He’s currently supporting a push to build a massive new downtown football stadium, even though L.A. has no professional football team, and to displace much of the taxpayer-backed Convention Center, which would presumably need to be rebuilt with public funds. And his biggest priority is to build the so-called subway to the sea, a $40 billion train that would connect downtown with the Pacific. All these government contracts feed the machine and its supporters.
This downtown push has done little to resuscitate the city’s economy, however, probably because it misses the entire point of Los Angeles, says Ali Modarres, chairman of the geography department at Cal State Los Angeles. Remember that L.A.’s economy is built on multiple cores, which operate largely independently of downtown. Downtown Los Angeles employs a mere 2.5 percent of the region’s workforce; New York’s central business districts, by contrast, employ roughly 20 percent. “To put the entire focus of development on downtown L.A.,” Modarres says, “is to ignore the historical, cultural, economic, social forces that have shaped the larger geography of this metropolitan area.”
This downtown push has done little to resuscitate the city’s economy, however, probably because it misses the entire point of Los Angeles, says Ali Modarres, chairman of the geography department at Cal State Los Angeles. Remember that L.A.’s economy is built on multiple cores, which operate largely independently of downtown. Downtown Los Angeles employs a mere 2.5 percent of the region’s workforce; New York’s central business districts, by contrast, employ roughly 20 percent. “To put the entire focus of development on downtown L.A.,” Modarres says, “is to ignore the historical, cultural, economic, social forces that have shaped the larger geography of this metropolitan area.”
LA is not alone. New York, Chicago, Memphis, Las Vegas, Detroit, Cleveland, and many other urban cores that was once a draw for the innovative, for families looking for upward mobility into the middle class, for businesses looking to relocate somewhere more friendly are now stagnant with a net-outflow of families, the middle class, workers, home owners, businesses, immigrant labor, etc. It's sad because they all follow the same failed policies, and when the renovate themselves, its to make themselves hip and sexy, not functional and viable for the working class and families. LA once had this approach, Austin and Houston carry's on that dream and is leading most big cities on almost every positive indicator of what makes a great city.
Salt Lake City seems to be doing it right as well with their reviving of their downtown core
Quote:
Of course, the fundamentally ecclesiastical logic diverges wildly from urbanist conventional wisdom. In most cities, planners embrace the idea of building the city core around singles, or "empty nesters." The nurturing of a "bohemian" culture--hopefully of the free-spending bourgeois variety--is seen as providing a spur to art galleries, bars, clubs and high-end restaurants.
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001 ... cred-space
Our cities are sick and uncompetitive. The youth's spirit of revival is not also paired with an attitude to work, or to take instruction well and humbly from those above you. We can't be competitive in the west if our cities are only focused on the green movement.
bull on your first premise, windpower is what kept denmark from being as hard hit as many other european countries around us, it is a brilliant industry that barely even felt the recession.
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woe be to the nose who nears it.
11 Aug 2011, 6:37 am
Trossit wrote:
Europe seems to have a declining population.
The main contribution to Europe's population is from immigrants outside of Europe and the children that they have. The core "white" population has been declining for decades and is under 2 children per family which means it cannot sustain itself.
ruveyn
techstepgenr8tion
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11 Aug 2011, 6:46 am
Dox47 wrote:
I don't particularly want a manufacturing job, but I'd agree that the government is top heavy. I haven't particularly noticed my quality of life declining recently, despite definitely falling into the lower end of the income scale.
I think technology and innovation have changed things in ways people can't measure just by looking at income distribution. Apparently, if just literal 'stuff', quality, and accessibilities are measured, we all have a better standard of living than JD Rockefeller.
That and, when people in their early twenties say that culture is falling - they still perhaps don't realize what things have been like in even recent past decades.
_________________
“Love takes off the masks that we fear we cannot live without and know we cannot live within. I use the word "love" here not merely in the personal sense but as a state of being, or a state of grace - not in the infantile American sense of being made happy but in the tough and universal sense of quest and daring and growth.” - James Baldwin
MarketAndChurch
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11 Aug 2011, 8:06 am
Oodain wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
we are opting for environmental sustainability over economic growth(though many of them like to pair environmental justice with economic growth). Our quality of life will remain stagnant for a while before it falls off to second world standards. The focus on green technology, high density growth, fast trains and mass transit will kill us as they are not job producers, and the economy is central for a good quality of life.
Look to the city of Los Angeles. A once powerhouse for manufacturing during the cold war, and even after that no longer cares about it. It is attempting to unionize one of the two biggest ports on the west coast. Businesses are relocating out of the city at an alarming rate. Families are leaving for OC or San Diego, or out of state. They have the highest paid city council in America. 18,000 county workers earn more then 100,000 dollars a year. And now in the red and looking to revive the city, what does the mayor do? He doesn't attempt to revive LA's manufacturing core, that's for sure. He tries to be hip and cool, like every other mayor of a big city. It's all about luring the condo and highrise apartment builders, bringing a baseball team to town, a sexy bar district,
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_3_los-angeles.html
LA is not alone. New York, Chicago, Memphis, Las Vegas, Detroit, Cleveland, and many other urban cores that was once a draw for the innovative, for families looking for upward mobility into the middle class, for businesses looking to relocate somewhere more friendly are now stagnant with a net-outflow of families, the middle class, workers, home owners, businesses, immigrant labor, etc. It's sad because they all follow the same failed policies, and when the renovate themselves, its to make themselves hip and sexy, not functional and viable for the working class and families. LA once had this approach, Austin and Houston carry's on that dream and is leading most big cities on almost every positive indicator of what makes a great city.
Salt Lake City seems to be doing it right as well with their reviving of their downtown core
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001 ... cred-space
Our cities are sick and uncompetitive. The youth's spirit of revival is not also paired with an attitude to work, or to take instruction well and humbly from those above you. We can't be competitive in the west if our cities are only focused on the green movement.
Look to the city of Los Angeles. A once powerhouse for manufacturing during the cold war, and even after that no longer cares about it. It is attempting to unionize one of the two biggest ports on the west coast. Businesses are relocating out of the city at an alarming rate. Families are leaving for OC or San Diego, or out of state. They have the highest paid city council in America. 18,000 county workers earn more then 100,000 dollars a year. And now in the red and looking to revive the city, what does the mayor do? He doesn't attempt to revive LA's manufacturing core, that's for sure. He tries to be hip and cool, like every other mayor of a big city. It's all about luring the condo and highrise apartment builders, bringing a baseball team to town, a sexy bar district,
http://www.city-journal.org/2011/21_3_los-angeles.html
Quote:
A common complaint about Villaraigosa is his governing style, which many see as detached from long-term issues and focused on cultivating powerful friends, perhaps in preparation for a future Senate run. But a far greater problem has been the mayor’s single-minded emphasis on downtown development, especially high-density residential development. He has supported heavy subsidies and tax advantages for L.A. Live, a downtown entertainment complex, as well as for other projects in the area, and he has backed public investment in the surrounding infrastructure. He’s currently supporting a push to build a massive new downtown football stadium, even though L.A. has no professional football team, and to displace much of the taxpayer-backed Convention Center, which would presumably need to be rebuilt with public funds. And his biggest priority is to build the so-called subway to the sea, a $40 billion train that would connect downtown with the Pacific. All these government contracts feed the machine and its supporters.
This downtown push has done little to resuscitate the city’s economy, however, probably because it misses the entire point of Los Angeles, says Ali Modarres, chairman of the geography department at Cal State Los Angeles. Remember that L.A.’s economy is built on multiple cores, which operate largely independently of downtown. Downtown Los Angeles employs a mere 2.5 percent of the region’s workforce; New York’s central business districts, by contrast, employ roughly 20 percent. “To put the entire focus of development on downtown L.A.,” Modarres says, “is to ignore the historical, cultural, economic, social forces that have shaped the larger geography of this metropolitan area.”
This downtown push has done little to resuscitate the city’s economy, however, probably because it misses the entire point of Los Angeles, says Ali Modarres, chairman of the geography department at Cal State Los Angeles. Remember that L.A.’s economy is built on multiple cores, which operate largely independently of downtown. Downtown Los Angeles employs a mere 2.5 percent of the region’s workforce; New York’s central business districts, by contrast, employ roughly 20 percent. “To put the entire focus of development on downtown L.A.,” Modarres says, “is to ignore the historical, cultural, economic, social forces that have shaped the larger geography of this metropolitan area.”
LA is not alone. New York, Chicago, Memphis, Las Vegas, Detroit, Cleveland, and many other urban cores that was once a draw for the innovative, for families looking for upward mobility into the middle class, for businesses looking to relocate somewhere more friendly are now stagnant with a net-outflow of families, the middle class, workers, home owners, businesses, immigrant labor, etc. It's sad because they all follow the same failed policies, and when the renovate themselves, its to make themselves hip and sexy, not functional and viable for the working class and families. LA once had this approach, Austin and Houston carry's on that dream and is leading most big cities on almost every positive indicator of what makes a great city.
Salt Lake City seems to be doing it right as well with their reviving of their downtown core
Quote:
Of course, the fundamentally ecclesiastical logic diverges wildly from urbanist conventional wisdom. In most cities, planners embrace the idea of building the city core around singles, or "empty nesters." The nurturing of a "bohemian" culture--hopefully of the free-spending bourgeois variety--is seen as providing a spur to art galleries, bars, clubs and high-end restaurants.
http://www.newgeography.com/content/001 ... cred-space
Our cities are sick and uncompetitive. The youth's spirit of revival is not also paired with an attitude to work, or to take instruction well and humbly from those above you. We can't be competitive in the west if our cities are only focused on the green movement.
bull on your first premise, windpower is what kept denmark from being as hard hit as many other european countries around us, it is a brilliant industry that barely even felt the recession.
how is that bull? denmark has the population of the state of Oregon. Just because it is a country does not mean you can just prescribe what works for them to another country who is 60 times its size. The collective EU output of green tech would be a fairer comparison to a country of 300 million.
Say the state of oregon had a lot of windpower companies, Windpower would not have kept Oregon out of the recession either as global demand is already well met by Denmark.... and this is true across green technology as a whole: A lot of new players keep entering the scene but global demand for their services has been a third of their output. A large part of the risk is the assumption that government would heed the calls of global warming alarmists and act on the policy side in a way that would be beneficial to their business. But governments have not been as heavy handed as they had hope and demand is still down and will stay low for the next few years.
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MarketAndChurch
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11 Aug 2011, 8:09 am
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
I don't particularly want a manufacturing job, but I'd agree that the government is top heavy. I haven't particularly noticed my quality of life declining recently, despite definitely falling into the lower end of the income scale.
That and, when people in their early twenties say that culture is falling - they still perhaps don't realize what things have been like in even recent past decades.
because they think the world started when they were born
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