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Kraichgauer
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08 Oct 2016, 12:57 am

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
If I did, I suspect they'd go crying to the moderators that I've been slandering and defaming them.


You have something to hide?


Not at all. Why would you think that?


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Dox47
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08 Oct 2016, 8:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Not at all. Why would you think that?


You said you'd be afraid of being reported; why be afraid if there's nothing there to worry about? I assume I'm being constantly reported, never stops me from speaking my mind.


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Dox47
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08 Oct 2016, 8:57 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
The thing is, I am certain about those things. I haven't just formed opinions about conservatives without having talked to them. In fact, I've known conservatives for years - in fact mostly in my church - and while I remain friendly with them, I have no illusions about what they believe about those without.


You know what I'm certain of, Bill? That I know a lot less than I think I do, especially about what motivates other people. Everything else, I'm not so sure about, though I put a lot more credence into things I can verify for myself, hence my relative confidence on subjects that I have a lot of personal experience with.


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Kraichgauer
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08 Oct 2016, 9:00 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Not at all. Why would you think that?


You said you'd be afraid of being reported; why be afraid if there's nothing there to worry about? I assume I'm being constantly reported, never stops me from speaking my mind.


That hardly means I have something to hide. Rather, I'd rather not be booted out of WP because someone with a grudge against me who doesn't like it when I identify them to the whole forum. I don't know if that would get me banned, but then again, Inuyasha probably didn't think making homophobic posts would get him thrown out either.


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Kraichgauer
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08 Oct 2016, 9:10 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
The thing is, I am certain about those things. I haven't just formed opinions about conservatives without having talked to them. In fact, I've known conservatives for years - in fact mostly in my church - and while I remain friendly with them, I have no illusions about what they believe about those without.


You know what I'm certain of, Bill? That I know a lot less than I think I do, especially about what motivates other people. Everything else, I'm not so sure about, though I put a lot more credence into things I can verify for myself, hence my relative confidence on subjects that I have a lot of personal experience with.


I don't claim to know much of anyone's motivation, but when someone says something in an environment where they think they are safe to open up - such as in my congregation where conservatives outnumber liberals - I think it's a good bet that they are being honest. And their conservative opposition to social programs has little to do with caring about those making use of them.


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08 Oct 2016, 9:26 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
That hardly means I have something to hide. Rather, I'd rather not be booted out of WP because someone with a grudge against me who doesn't like it when I identify them to the whole forum. I don't know if that would get me banned, but then again, Inuyasha probably didn't think making homophobic posts would get him thrown out either.


You're a liberal, Bill, you'd practically have to make death threats to get thrown out of here, and even then it's iffy. (not even kidding, the person who said they wanted to stab Raptor in the eye is still around, and that's not even the only example)
The mods these days require a lot of provoking before they take action, just because someone reports you doesn't mean that anything will come of it.


AFAIK, Inuyasha was given a 30 day suspension and simply didn't come back, here is the thread that got him that suspension:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=217508

Kindly point out the homophobic remarks.

I'm a huge fan of Cornflake and Tallyman, but IMHO this was a bad call by them, Inuyasha could be dense, but he wasn't a homophobe.


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Dox47
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08 Oct 2016, 9:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
I don't claim to know much of anyone's motivation, but when someone says something in an environment where they think they are safe to open up - such as in my congregation where conservatives outnumber liberals - I think it's a good bet that they are being honest. And their conservative opposition to social programs has little to do with caring about those making use of them.


Bill, this entire argument is about you claiming to know other people's motivations. You keep coming back to this argument that conservative plans for helping the less fortunate are ineffective, therefore conservatives don't care, where all you're really proving is that conservatives place too much faith in charity.

I went to gunsmithing school with guys from every part of the country who were pretty universally conservative and not at all shy about it (this guy from Brooklyn who washed out and I were the exceptions), and contempt for the poor was not a value these people held, far from it. Like I said, you could argue, accurately even, that they place too much faith in private charities and the ability of people to bootstrap themselves up (lot of ex-military, very common belief among them), but you couldn't say they didn't care or wished harm on those struggling financially.

Like I've said many times here, the conservative case for helping people out can be roughly described as teaching people to fish rather than giving them fish, and agree or disagree, you can't say that isn't caring.


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Aristophanes
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08 Oct 2016, 9:44 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Like I've said many times here, the conservative case for helping people out can be roughly described as teaching people to fish rather than giving them fish, and agree or disagree, you can't say that isn't caring.


Yeah that's a REALLY rough description when the actual policy is: "This is my fish, go get your own f'in fish or starve-- I don't give a s**t."



Dox47
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08 Oct 2016, 9:57 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Yeah that's a REALLY rough description when the actual policy is: "This is my fish, go get your own f'in fish or starve-- I don't give a s**t."


My, what a helpful post, with so much supporting detail too.


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Kraichgauer
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08 Oct 2016, 10:47 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I don't claim to know much of anyone's motivation, but when someone says something in an environment where they think they are safe to open up - such as in my congregation where conservatives outnumber liberals - I think it's a good bet that they are being honest. And their conservative opposition to social programs has little to do with caring about those making use of them.


Bill, this entire argument is about you claiming to know other people's motivations. You keep coming back to this argument that conservative plans for helping the less fortunate are ineffective, therefore conservatives don't care, where all you're really proving is that conservatives place too much faith in charity.

I went to gunsmithing school with guys from every part of the country who were pretty universally conservative and not at all shy about it (this guy from Brooklyn who washed out and I were the exceptions), and contempt for the poor was not a value these people held, far from it. Like I said, you could argue, accurately even, that they place too much faith in private charities and the ability of people to bootstrap themselves up (lot of ex-military, very common belief among them), but you couldn't say they didn't care or wished harm on those struggling financially.

Like I've said many times here, the conservative case for helping people out can be roughly described as teaching people to fish rather than giving them fish, and agree or disagree, you can't say that isn't caring.


Well, then I'll concede that not all conservatives are of the same stripe. I would imagine the guys you knew were working class guys, many of whom might have even experienced poverty, too. But to say that all conservatives would agree with those gun smiths is also greatly wrong. The conservatives I know who hold the poor in contempt tend to be upper middle class businessmen. One of them, who had come from what he describes as an impoverished background growing up on a South Dakota farm, had told me that he doesn't owe the poor anything because he had pulled himself up by his own bootstraps, while those who remain poor only have themselves to blame. Another church member (surprisingly an exception, as he was a retired government worker), who has since died, had told me how he doesn't owe anyone any help. Those are only a couple examples.
As for your other post regarding Inuyasha - I was only reporting what had been told to me. I'm not going to say he was not free from anti-gay prejudice, but neither was he the worst homophobe around.
As for how I shouldn't fear actions from my fellow liberals - even if that's so, I personally think the same rules should apply to everyone. If I threatened to hurt someone on WP, then action should be taken against me.


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