Being lonely, feeling unwanted, not knowing why

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This is going to be a long one, I'm sorry, but I'd really truly appreciate feedback from anyone willing to read through it all.

I've been trying really hard lately to be positive and avoid depression. I know that being moody and depressed and sad and serious and negative makes you less attractive, as a general rule. So does desperation. But it's really hard.

I've dated in the past, but the relationships were always horrible. I was used and abused without even realizing it until later. My last long-term relationship was 5 years ago, with a woman, lasting a year and a half. In the end I discovered that I was only an affair - the woman who told me she loved me for so long had a fiancee and about 5 or 6 other lovers on the side, and was lying to everyone.

For a while I decided it would be better to just be single, to be happy with myself and not feel like I needed to be in a relationship, so that I could meet someone naturally instead of going out and looking and ending up with the first person who showed me any attention. I never had a negative self-image or anything - I always thought I was a good person and worthy of love, but while no one seemed to have a bad opinion of me, no one was attracted to me either.

After a couple of years had gone by I found myself attracted to men and no longer really interested in women. I don't know what the reason is exactly, but it doesn't matter. But while many lesbians found me a cute "boi"-ish sort, guys just thought I looked like a tomboy or a lesbian and they don't find me attractive. I've learned to wear women's clothing - girl's jeans, pants, shirts, underwear, and I even own a skirt now - and I've grown my hair out, but that doesn't stop me from being masculine. My speech, my body language, it's all so masculine. I've never gotten along with women and all my friends have always been guys, so I learned to mimic their social interactions. I come across as generally pretty normal now (no one would guess I’m aspie), but I don't know how to appear like a girl, and trying makes me really uncomfortable. I don't like girls, why would I want to be like them? And the idea of spending enough time with them to learn to mimic their social interactions is just a nightmare.

I was talking to a friend (a guy of course) about it recently and he agreed that it's one thing to change your appearance, but you can't change who you are. He told me I shouldn't bother trying, because it's just silly. It doesn't work that way. You are who you are deep down inside and trying to change it is pointless and kind of like lying to the world. He told me that yes, I'm not a normal girl, but that's not necessarily a bad thing (normal girls are crazy and he’s had many bad experiences with them), and it makes me interesting that I’m so different.

It seemed we connected in a way I haven't with anyone in a long time, and I really like this guy in many ways, so a while after that I made a move and asked him out. He said no - not because there was anything wrong with me, but because of bad experiences in the past, he has a personal rule not to date girls from his circle of friends. He told me if I want to date him I either have to stop being friends with everyone he knows (which is basically all of my friends), or do what most girls do and manipulate him into thinking it was his idea to date me (not gonna happen, I don’t do that).

I told my flatmate (my closest friend really) in a half-joking tone of voice the other day that I will die alone in an apartment full of cats, and that I had accepted that as inevitable and was not depressed about it, just trying to let go of the need to have a relationship with someone. I’m not the girl that guys want to date. I’m the girl that guys want to hang out with and treat like one of the guys. And no matter how hard I try to change myself, it’s too deep a part of my personality to be masculine for me to ever appear like a normal girl. He’s a big believer in fate and soulmates and all that, and he told me he’s 100% confident that someday I’ll meet the perfect guy and we’ll fall head over heels in love with each other and stay together forever.

Personally I don’t believe in relationships that start with that rush of “love at first sight.” That’s just chemicals. It’s nature noticing that you are a good genetic match and trying to get you to have a baby together. And that chemical feeling of attraction NEVER lasts forever. It just doesn’t. It fades away, and then you’re left with two people who suddenly realize that the only thing they have in common is that rush they first experienced, which is now gone, and maybe some kids, which they now have to raise without really loving each other. I believe that the only relationships which work long-term are ones which build up slowly. You get to know each other, enjoy each other’s company, realize that you can put up with each other’s BS and enjoy enough of the same things that you can stand being around each other for long periods of time without wanting to kill each other. That kind of relationship can last.

I’m not interested in a short-term relationship. I don’t expect that if I date someone it will necessarily last forever – no one can see the future and sometimes things just don’t work out. But I don’t want to meet someone, be swept up in chemicals, and then crash at the end like I see everyone around me doing. In any case I doubt it will happen.

I guess the thing that’s upsetting me is at age 26, there’s not a single man in the world who is interested in me, and in this country, by this age everyone is already paired up and preparing to get married. I can’t shake the feeling that maybe I really will just die alone in an apartment full of cats. But if that’s the case, I should just accept it. Let’s face it, I can satisfy myself physically far better than anyone else ever could. I have some good friends who I know are there for me. My instinct is to look for someone to share my life with, but if it’s never going to happen… Is there any way to just let this need go?

I see people all around me in relationships. I see fat and ugly and annoying and mean and boring people who date all the time, get married, never need to feel alone. I’m a good-looking young woman, not jealous, trustworthy, honest, fun, great sense of humor, interested in video games and checking out girls with my guy friends, I need personal space sometimes and would never smother anyone but am always there when someone needs me. Everything I ever hear a guy say he wants, I have that. I’m even good in bed, enjoy doing things that guys like and most girls don’t, and have a much higher sex drive than most women. I may be depressed sometimes, but I never let it show when I’m out in the world. I smile and fake it and people respond to my positivity. But no one wants to date me. No one is interested. I get lonelier every day, surrounded by my friends who complain to me about how too many girls want to date them and how hard it is, and I want to punch them all right in the nuts.

I don’t know what the hell to do. I’ve written far too much already; my deepest thanks to anyone who actually reads all of this. I’ve needed to write it all down for a while and any responses are greatly appreciated.

You should re-post this in the love and dating forum as there are many men there very willing to date any woman who will date them apparently.

Concerning the majority of men though, you are correct to speculate that masculine body language and in a woman is a turn off to most of them and you would greatly increase your chances of attracting a man if you feminized them such that they aren't overtly masculine.


I think there are probably a few reasons why you actually struggle with this but I think you have to realize that many aspects of how one presents their gender is a socialogical construct and not innate.

Even MTF transexuals who honestly do feel like women, frequently need training to learn how to act more womanly, and FTM transexuals frequently need training to learn how to act more manly, even if the former was previously effeminate and the latter was previously masculine.

But I know women who are MUCH more masculine than me who date men all the time and never have trouble finding someone. And I'm not exactly "butch" or anything. I'm very much a girl. More masculine than average, but no one suspects nowadays that I ever dated women. I'm slightly odd because of my AS more than anything (which, according to what I've heard from other aspie females, usually means being naturally far more masculine than NT girls). This is not something that can be changed. I do my best to mimic body language of other girls but it just doesn't look or feel right. I just look nervous and awkward, like I'm forcing it (because I am). If I can just be myself (meaning somewhat, though not overwhelmingly, masculine), I can be comfortable and even confident and charismatic. People respond to it. Yet no one is attracted to me.

The flip side of this is that all of my guy friends treat me as a mix of guy and girl. I'm too masculine for any of them to think of me as a "girl" in a sexual sense. However, when it comes to social interactions, I'm not allowed to act the same as them. A prime example: My group of friends is always standing around making fun of each other. I used to be really nice to everyone all the time, and people told me it was annoying. So I watched them and mimicked them and learned to tease them like they do to each other. But when I do the exact same thing that they do, they get angry at me. They demand to know how I would dare to say something like that to them - when they've been saying the exact same words to each other all day. I ask them why it's okay for them to do it and not me, and they say it's because I'm a girl. Yet none of them will treat me like a girl either. I'm stuck in this horrible limbo and it's tearing me to pieces.

And I'm not looking for a relationship in an "I'm desperate not to be alone" kind of sense (though the fear that I will end up alone in the end is a very real one). I'm just pained and frustrated that when I'm really into someone and we really get along well and we seem totally compatible, and I finally get brave and make a move, I always get rejected and hurt. I don't want to date someone who just wants to date someone. I want one of these guys that I care so much about to value me as a person, who I am, and care about me the way I care about them. And they never, ever, EVER do. Not once. The only people who've ever dated me were just using me, as they made cruelly very clear at the end of the relationships.

Sorry to hear about your experiences.

What ended those relationships exactly? That sounds very malicious that they'd say that. I hate to ask and you don't have to answer, just was wondering.

Also I think some females date like guys do-- whereas you have a lot of women who have confidence and just make the move, subtle or otherwise. You also get a lot more opportunities if you're actively doing things that put you in contact with people.

Well, I had one boyfriend in high school for about a year who finally said he realized that he had only dated me because he was desperately lonely and I was the only one who gave him a chance (being desperately lonely myself) so he broke it off.

Then I had a girlfriend who I fell really hard for. We dated for about a month and then she told me that she had only been experimenting to see if she liked girls, realized she didn't, and got back together with her ex-boyfriend. She promised we'd stay in touch and be friends, then never answered my calls or returned my messages, except once to tell me how naive I had been to expect that she would actually want to stay friends with me.

Then there was a horribly abusive relationship with a woman that lasted a year and a half, which I believe I described above: she was engaged and having affairs with many women, including me, as well as one or two men. When I caught her and confronted her, she got angry at me and said it was my fault that the breakup happened, because I talked to her "roommate" (fiancee) when she had told me not to. She said many nasty things to me and finally disappeared along with some of my stuff which I had lent her.

Then I had a fling with a guy who told me he was leaving his wife, fell for him in the process, and then in the end he told me he had never really intended to leave her and was only sleeping with me to escape from his problems, and that *I* was being unfair by saying he led me on.

Then there was a young guy who I spent the night with twice, and he kept telling me how into me he was and how beautiful I was and how difficult it was not to just kiss me all day every day, then he told me he had been dating another girl and decided he didn't want to see me anymore, gave me a sort of "hey, baby, that's just how it goes, you knew what this was" speech, and never answered another call or message from me again, didn't show up for my birthday celebration and never responded when I sent him some neutral but friendly birthday wishes.

There've been a few other people I really liked who rejected me, some nicely, some not, but never have I had an actual healthy relationship with someone who genuinely cared about me. And again, I'm not saying I'm desperate for a boyfriend and I'd date anyone who'd be willing to go out with me, and actually I'm quite picky, but it does bother me and really crush my ego to realize that there aren't any guys at all who want to date me, not even ones I'm not interested in. Especially when I see so many of these hideous, horrible people who never have trouble getting a date.

I think a lot of people can get dates, I think finding a person of real quality is incredibly rare tho. In a world full of people there are cheaters, liars, manipulators, abusers.. etc. I think you may have just had really bad luck, I'd say it probably doesn't really reflect on your self-worth (believe me I know how hard this is to self-realize..and not asking to, just an opinion).

Body language has a lot to do with it, physical appearance and attitude and hygiene/grooming factor in as well. A person probably owes it to themselves to maintain these. But to be honest a person like you probably don't want a huge quantity of guys or girls chasing after them.. more like, just the right person to chase after them.

Edit: Sorry if the way I phrased things here sucked. I'm not really that good at it and am trying to write in a tactful manner.

You can get people chasing for the right reasons and the wrong reasons, girls getting chased who weren't being chased before female growth hormone kicked in--need to be wary.

You shouldn't need to fight for someone's time, if you do.. it might be time to find someone who understands exactly how worthwhile you are.

Thanks for the kind words. This is precisely what I've been trying to do since my hormones started kicking in around age 8 (abnormally young I know). The thing that has always confused me is why it's so hard to do that.

For many years I thought everyone in the world was just a bunch of as*holes, but finally a few years ago I discovered that I have AS and people were just responding to my abnormal social tendencies and body language. Some very nice people helped me learn basic social skills (getting more advanced all the time) and develop my body language to a normal level, so I no longer believe that my troubles are a result of a lack of basic social skills.

On the other hand, while I learned the social skills for normal, standard interaction between friends, and colleagues and strangers and all that, I never learned any skills for things like flirting, and I have no normal experience to base future interactions on. But how would I learn them? I learned the skills I have through practice and by memorizing rules. It's reasonably easy to explain rules for things like how long to maintain eye contact, how long to speak about one topic before changing, how many times it's acceptable to speak about the same topic in one day without sounding obsessive, etc. But when I ask my friends to explain how to flirt, they all have no idea. They tell me you just have to sense it, read the other person's body language, go with the moment.

I've tried to tell my friends that telling me these things is like giving a blind person a button that changes colors randomly, and saying "press the button when it's blue and everything will go well, but don't press it when it's red or everything will blow up in your face." And no matter how many times the person says "but I'm blind, I can't see colors," the idiots just keep repeating their useless instructions.

As for physical appearance and hygiene, I don't think I have any problems. I used to dress in boys' clothes and have short hair, but I now have long, curly hair which gets compliments. I shower every day and wash my hair twice a week. I make sure my clothes don't get smelly from wearing them too much (some things like jeans I wear a few times, but socks and underwear I change at least once a day, often twice), I use antiperspirant, and I normally give myself a few squirts of a perfume I've been told smells great on me before I go out. I've gotten many compliments from friends and occasional acquaintances on certain articles of clothing and on my perfume. But no one approaches me in a romantic way, and when I try I am always rejected.

Presumably I am doing something wrong. But I can't figure out what it is. And if it's simply some part of my personality, I really will just die alone surrounded by cats and I should accept it now and focus on other areas of my life. But what on earth am I doing wrong?

I'm sorry you are having such a tough time. But at least you have friends.

You're experiences with dating sound awful, It things like this that put me off dating. Just goes to show how many careless aholes there are out there.

I think you should try harder to be happy being single and try to do more things you enjoy on your own. I know this could be lonely at times but surely its better than being in a relationship with someone who doesn't actually care about you.

As far as the being masculine.goes, I can only speak for myself here but I've never really been attracted to really girly-girls or overly masculine ones for that matter. I find myself liking the ones who are somewhere in the middle. Other men probably have different preferences.

I'm sorry I can't give you better advice, I just don't know what to say. You seem like a real nice person, I hope you begin to feel better soon.

I apologize again for the length of this one, but this time I have some specifics, and I’d really truly appreciate any feedback or advice anyone can offer.

Thanks for the kind words so far. I had a long drunken conversation with some friends the other night where they tried to offer me advice. Unfortunately, given the drunken nature of the conversation, I don't remember all of it, but I remember a few key points.

1. My clothes. I had just bought a new pair of loose cloth pants and a matching v-neck shirt, as well as a long loose skirt with a nice pattern on it. My flatmate calls them "hippie-style" and says I look fantastic in them and should wear more of this type of stuff. My friends that night (I was wearing the new pants and shirt) said this is exactly the type of clothing I should be wearing instead of dressing "like a boy." This comment came as a surprise to me because I stopped wearing mens/boys clothes ages ago. They all agreed that my style of dress has improved considerably over the last year, but that I still tend to wear masculine-looking (or at least, not feminine-looking) clothing: jeans and t-shirts. Apparently it doesn't matter that the jeans and shirts are women's, it still looks too masculine given my androgynous body language.

This was quite a blow. I thought I had done so well in wearing tighter womens clothes and this was the first time anyone told me it still looked boyish. Furthermore, I really don't see the difference between the t-shirts I usually wear and the new one I bought the other day - in fact, the ones I usually wear are tighter, and this one was quite loose. Obviously I lack the ability to distinguish what is feminine. I've asked friends to help me shop for clothing many times, but they always say they don't have the time. The one person who I have managed to get to help me was just infuriating, as he wanted me to go directly from one extreme of comfy jeans and t-shirts to the opposite of high heels, makeup, "super skinny" jeans, slu*ty tops, and push-up bras.

The worst part of this clothing problem is that I don't have any money for new clothes. I got a deal on these few things I bought, but I keep careful track of my budget and I can't afford to buy anything new at the moment. What can I do with the clothes I already have? Does anyone have any tips on how to tell if clothing is feminine or not? I like the "hippie-style" stuff, but I can't tell what's what when it's hanging on a rack in the store, and I'm clueless about whether someone looks good on me in the fitting room.

2. Makeup. This has always been one of my absolute no-way out-of-bounds things. I will never, ever, ever wear makeup. I have nice skin, partially because I never wore makeup and damaged the skin. I have been told I have nice eyelashes and my eyebrows are just fine. These friends told me that yes, I have nice eyelashes, but I should wear a small amount of mascara to accentuate my good qualities. As for my eyebrows, I have a tiny scar on the right side from when I feel on the ice as a small child. I didn't think anyone noticed it - I can hardly see it when I look in the mirror. But these friends said actually it's very obvious and I should be plucking my eyebrows in this area on both sides in order to make them perfectly symmetrical. I just can't imagine myself doing that. I have a hard enough time shaving my legs, and I'm expected to pluck my eyebrows? I also have hypersensitive eyes, and I'm sure that even if I decided I was okay with wearing eye makeup, it wouldn't work. My eyes would just water and the mascara would run down my face and look awful. Finally, I can't accept the suggestion that mascara and tweezers are the difference between someone being attracted to me or not. There are more important issues. What’s more, I’ve known many women who don’t even shave their legs who go on dates and get laid all the time.

3. Personality. I was devastated to hear that I am still considered to be a very negative person. I have been working on this for years. It is true that while I constantly force myself to smile and look happy and say only positive things around new people I’m trying to make friends with or especially guys I might be interested in, I have struggled with depression and loneliness since I was only a small child, and with my close friends I tend to vent sometimes. I didn’t think I did it that often, especially considering that my friends always seem to be complaining to me anyway. I’m at a total loss at this point on how to improve this.

4. “Your witty banter is not witty.” A friend said that when I try to tease people and engage in banter, I tease them about things that are “too obvious” and instead of sounding playful, I sound cruel. This is not the first time I’ve heard this but no one can give me anything more specific. It *all* sounds cruel to me, and I only do it in an attempt to mimic other people and blend in. A while ago I had an encounter with a friend who is always making fun of everyone. He really goes for the jugular, giving people constant crap about issues with drugs and alcohol and dating and clothing and hygiene and everything. And everyone always laughs – except me. It never seems funny to me, especially when he does it to me. It’s just hurtful. Yet everyone else finds it funny, so I try to mimic it. Almost no one laughs when I do it. They just accuse me of being mean and ask why I would poke at someone’s sensitive issues like that. One day I teased this particular guy about his drinking (using almost the exact words he often uses to make fun of me and others) and he exploded at me, yelled at me, I couldn’t believe he was serious. Another friend was present and he later said that while the guy’s reaction was unexpected, I *was* being awfully mean.

On the other hand, if I just don’t tease people at all and only say nice things, I get the feedback that it’s annoying and I need to stop doing it so much. If I just don’t speak at all, people forget I exist. If I talk about myself in a positive way, they tell me I sound arrogant. If I talk about myself in a negative way, they tell me I whine too much. If I ask other people about themselves, they either go on and on for ages about stuff I couldn’t care less about (the very thing I get criticized for) or they tell me to stop being nosy.

I’m at the end of my rope. On the one hand, everyone agrees that I’ve improved tremendously. On the other hand, everyone agrees that it’s not enough. But it seems I’ve exhausted the straightforward changes I can make. How does one learn to read facial expressions and tone? How can I learn to be funny without being cruel? How can I learn to detect sarcasm and when should I let it go when people say hurtful things, and when is it okay to get angry? All this work I’ve done, and still I’ve never felt so lost.

I'm still wrestling with these exact questions at my age. Many of the things you wrote I could have said myself.

I'm still convinced that it's simply a question of meeting the right person (which may never happen). I've seen the near-instantaneous improvements in fellow WPers when they meet someone, either here or IRL. I think it all just boils down to dumb luck, but I think you can improve your chances by "putting yourself out there" - I just haven't the slightest idea where. You sound like a really terrific person, I hope some guy has the sense to see that soon.

I wish I knew what to tell you, but I hope it helps to know that you're not the only person going through this - and I have a contented, purring cat in my lap right now: what's so bad about it?

Well I went out last night to see some friends DJ and decided to go all-out and wear a skirt. I don't have any shoes that match it so I had to wear a cheap old pair of flip-flops (not the best choice for clubbing in general). I have to admit I felt pretty comfortable in the skirt, but the shoes are a problem (what kind of shoes do you wear with a blue-green patterned skirt? I have brown ones but they didn't look right with it) as well as carrying stuff. I don't know if I can bring myself to carry a purse (or find the money to buy one for that matter) and I had to carry my backpack around all night. I feel like even if I did decide to get a purse and found the money to buy one, I'd just forget it somewhere. Everything always has to be in my backpack or I forget it and lose it.

As for reactions, I got hit on a few times, which I guess is a positive sign, but it was not the kind of attention I wanted. It was the sort of guys who go out in groups, deliver macho lines to everything with breasts, and hope that one of them will be stupid or drunk enough to respond. Two guys actually stopped me on the way back from the toilet - one of them put his arm around me and said HI! in such a way that I thought maybe it was someone I knew. When I established that it was just some guy hitting on me and started walking away he said "Wait! You HAVE to come back!" and I said with such heavy sarcasm that even I would have picked up on it "Yeah, sure." As I turned to walk back to my friend, they actually high-fived.

The thing that pissed me off most, though, was the women. They were all dressed in clothes so tight that I can't imagine how they got them on and shorts so short they might as well have been naked from the waist down. They danced around doing the "slu*ty girl" dance and actually respond to the s**t that these guys deliver. No wonder guys act that way if it WORKS.

Sometimes I wish life was like TV. There's all these shy, genuinely nice guys who work up the courage to approach a girl and say something really sweet and slightly awkward, and she laughs and says aw, how sweet, and they chat for a while and get to know each other a bit and maybe they start dating. That doesn't seem to happen in real life. At all. I only see guys going after slu*ty girls, and slu*ty girls going after idiot guys. How could anyone find that look attractive in a woman? I just can't comprehend it at all. That fake tan, bleach-blond hair, silvery makeup, barely-there clothing, to me it looks like a walking cesspit of stupidity and STDs. Are women really this way naturally? Is that actually possible?

The other thing was the dancing. If I have enough of the right type of alcohol, I do dance, and I do my best to mimic the other women around me, but I feel like I end up dancing like a guy. I was paying close attention last night (I didn't really dance, was too tired, just observing) and it seemed that guys dance with simple repetitive movements to the beat of the music which are easy for me to mimic. Girls, on the other hand, move every part of their body in a different direction at the same time, they move fluidly (it's to the beat of course, but very smooth and never jerky) and they never repeat the same movement more than a few times before changing. Does this come naturally to them? I feel like I could practice in front of a mirror for days and never be able to coordinate my body movements like that.

It's a club that's what people do there - what else were you expecting?

It's not the only place to meet people, you know...

Aren't there normal, intelligent people who go to clubs without the sole intention of conning some idiot into sleeping with them? Going to clubs is basically the only social activity most of my friends engage in other than sitting around at home drinking beer and watching the news (not a good way to meet people). Can anyone offer suggestions of other places to go to meet people, and how to meet the first ones? I'm not exactly the type of person who walks into a new place and chats people up. :/ But if I have a friend with me I'm less nervous and shy (especially if alcohol is involved, thank god for alcohol) and more willing to engage with people I don't know.

Also, what about the dancing thing? Does anyone know if that type of movement is natural for normal girls, or is it something they have to learn, and if so is it conceivable that I might be able to learn it?

I don't have any, but if you hear anything please let me know!

For clubs, yeah probably. You pretty much will hit crowds that fit the type of places you go. A lot of clubs are easy pick up spots, or places for a 1 night stand. Also getting hit on classlessly like that isn't atypical to that type of environment according to my gf.

I couldn't really suggest a place to be honest.. geez where do classy people hang out, at starbucks?

No, dislike Starbucks.

Barnes and Noble. Thats where all the cool people hang out.