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visagrunt
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24 Aug 2011, 12:02 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Quoted for total Bullcrap and falsification.

There's no study that shows that Palestinians were Hashemites.


We can also say that Norwegians are Swedes.

So, first they are Jordanians, and then you say they are Syrians, then they are of many different nationalities? What's next? I think I smell a load of bovine manure.

Israelis claim that Palestinians do not exist for the same reason that Chinese claim that Tibetans do not exist; that lie makes it much easier to justify what they are doing.

The oldest common origin of Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians are the Canaanites. Those people today are called "Arabs" because of their current language .

The word "Arab" is a very term vague, it can refer to: The Arab race (The Gulf's Arabs) and the "Arabphones" (Non-Arab people who were culturally and linguistically conquered by Arabs.)
We even have a local term to refer to the 'real Arabs'.

Palestinians are of the Arabphone people, they weren't originally Arabs.

Jordanians are a totally different case (except the Palestinians who reside in Jordan due to the exodus), they were descended from Hashemites and Nabataeans, and other Ancient Arab tribes.

Palestinians are not Jordanians. It is ridiculous and ignorant to assume otherwise.

Mexicans speak Spanish, but most of them aren't Spaniards.


What's the point of all the foregoing fatuousness?

Quote:
Okay, so Jews have a right to exist. I agree. I also agree with you that ones' own country, established just for them, is necessary to secure their right to exist.

Now let me ask you the following:

Do white gentiles have a right to exist?


The question is puerile. All people have a right to exist.

But at least we have you acknowledging the need for the State of Israel to exist.

So drop all the "ethnic cleansing" agitprop and come back to the table with those of us who are willing to talk sensibly about how to create capacity within the Palestinian people to maintain a stable government, and put the territory in their hands. How do they rid themselves of Iran and Hamas? How can they enjoy the benefits from the economic development that they have managed to create in the West Bank? How do we get another Parliamentary democracy created in the Middle East?

The truth is that Fatah is so very nearly there. The Palestinian Authority outranks all of it's Arab neighbours (with the possible exception of Lebanon) on The Economists Freedom Index. While it is still a "hybrid regime," it would not take too much to bring it up into the ranks of "flawed democracies" with Israel (and Italy and France, for that matter).

Inflammatory language will not help the Palestinian people--all it will do is stiffen the resolve of Israel and her supporters. But an engagement of responsible diplomacy, from a government that can commit on behalf of its people can make all the difference in the world.


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24 Aug 2011, 1:06 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Well, then by that logic, what business do the Hashemites have there? The Palestinians already have a homeland, it's called Jordan.

The reality is that none of these arguments have any merit. The real circumstances on the ground are what needs to inform the discussion.

No solution that erases the State of Israel from the map, or that fails to create a Palestinian state on the map has any hope of success.


QFT


Quoted for total Bullcrap and falsification.

There's no study that shows that Palestinians were Hashemites


I was referring to the second part of his post. I think that was the main point that visagrunt was making? The comment about Jordan was a throwaway thing. It probably didn't seem that way to you and I can see why you're offended, but I think it was meant that way.

I'm totally ignorant about the ethnic origins of Palestinians. I guess I should have cut the first part of his post out, instead of quoting it's entirety. I agreed wtih visagrunt's point that we need to focus on the reality as it exists rather than using ancient tribal loyalties as an argument. We can neither remove Israel nor can we deny the rights of Palestinians.


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Tequila
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24 Aug 2011, 3:03 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
We can neither remove Israel nor can we deny the rights of Palestinians.


When they stop bombing Israel they might get my sympathy, for what it's worth. Until then I'll consider them similar to other nasties that inhabit this world.



The_Face_of_Boo
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24 Aug 2011, 4:50 pm

Tequila wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
We can neither remove Israel nor can we deny the rights of Palestinians.


When they stop bombing Israel they might get my sympathy, for what it's worth. Until then I'll consider them similar to other nasties that inhabit this world.


Your views are too one-sided in that matter.



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24 Aug 2011, 5:00 pm

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Your views are too one-sided in that matter.


From what I can tell, the Israelis can be pretty brutal and nasty at times, you'll get no argument from me on that. However, we either look to a democratic, stable, Westernised system of government or we look to Islamist, Jew-hating savages.



The_Face_of_Boo
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24 Aug 2011, 5:12 pm

Tequila wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Your views are too one-sided in that matter.


From what I can tell, the Israelis can be pretty brutal and nasty at times, you'll get no argument from me on that. However, we either look to a democratic, stable, Westernised system of government or we look to Islamist, Jew-hating savages.


I've read many posts of yours and I am starting to decrypt your logic on that matter .

To you

Israeli = civilized Middle-eastern.

Non-Israeli Middle-eastern = savage Middle-eastern.

Fine, that's your opinion.

But the savages' view on most of the Israelis will remain the same, whether peace happened or not = Non-Middle eastern Polish/Russian/European/foreigner invaders.


and Turkey's current rulers are closer to Islamists and they're doing a pretty good job regarding democracy and stability.



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24 Aug 2011, 5:26 pm

Tequila wrote:
From what I can tell, the Israelis can be pretty brutal and nasty at times, you'll get no argument from me on that. However, we either look to a democratic, stable, Westernised system of government or we look to Islamist, Jew-hating savages.

I think that what the Palestinians are doing is what humans naturally do when their land has been taken away. When I hear about what Palestinians are doing I am reminded of the things that Native Americans once did to European settlers that made the settlers call them "savages". That's what happens when you take someone's land away.

Also, I don't think anti-Zionist Palestinian behavior is motivated by Islamism.


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The_Face_of_Boo
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25 Aug 2011, 7:17 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Tequila wrote:
From what I can tell, the Israelis can be pretty brutal and nasty at times, you'll get no argument from me on that. However, we either look to a democratic, stable, Westernised system of government or we look to Islamist, Jew-hating savages.

I think that what the Palestinians are doing is what humans naturally do when their land has been taken away. When I hear about what Palestinians are doing I am reminded of the things that Native Americans once did to European settlers that made the settlers call them "savages". That's what happens when you take someone's land away.

Also, I don't think anti-Zionist Palestinian behavior is motivated by Islamism.


Pretty close, however Middle East's savages won't give up like America's savages.



Inuyasha
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27 Aug 2011, 1:02 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Tequila wrote:
The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
Your views are too one-sided in that matter.


From what I can tell, the Israelis can be pretty brutal and nasty at times, you'll get no argument from me on that. However, we either look to a democratic, stable, Westernised system of government or we look to Islamist, Jew-hating savages.


I've read many posts of yours and I am starting to decrypt your logic on that matter .

To you

Israeli = civilized Middle-eastern.

Non-Israeli Middle-eastern = savage Middle-eastern.

Fine, that's your opinion.

But the savages' view on most of the Israelis will remain the same, whether peace happened or not = Non-Middle eastern Polish/Russian/European/foreigner invaders.


and Turkey's current rulers are closer to Islamists and they're doing a pretty good job regarding democracy and stability.


Israelis do not use children as explosive devices.



ruveyn
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27 Aug 2011, 4:29 am

Inuyasha wrote:

Israelis do not use children as explosive devices.


True. But in a down and dirty fire fight they are more likely to use other people's children as explosive devices, or at least blow them up. That is the nature of war, particularly close quarter urban war.

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27 Aug 2011, 7:09 am

The_Face_of_Boo wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Tequila wrote:
From what I can tell, the Israelis can be pretty brutal and nasty at times, you'll get no argument from me on that. However, we either look to a democratic, stable, Westernised system of government or we look to Islamist, Jew-hating savages.

I think that what the Palestinians are doing is what humans naturally do when their land has been taken away. When I hear about what Palestinians are doing I am reminded of the things that Native Americans once did to European settlers that made the settlers call them "savages". That's what happens when you take someone's land away.

Also, I don't think anti-Zionist Palestinian behavior is motivated by Islamism.


Pretty close, however Middle East's savages won't give up like America's savages.


I think the Ashkenazim should embrace the Levantine ape the customs of the Mizrahim.
If they really are from there act like it leave Germany in Germany.
there was a trend in this direction it produced a lot of hummus eating and a resurrection of Hebrew.
But I think Israel should embrace pan-arabism with themselves defined as Arabs.
or at least acknowledge that there is a leventine culture (a mix of Jews Muslims christians and Druze)
and that they should strive to be part of it.


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27 Aug 2011, 8:43 am

They will eventually. Like Jews in America.



ruveyn
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27 Aug 2011, 8:55 am

pandabear wrote:
They will eventually. Like Jews in America.


Yodah says: Hold not your breath, else blue turn you will.

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27 Aug 2011, 9:07 am

Another couple of hundred years, after the Jews are outnumbered. Some future generation of Israelis will be like the hippies of our 1960s, and have big love-ins with their Moslem and Christian neighbors.



Tequila
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27 Aug 2011, 3:19 pm

pandabear wrote:
Another couple of hundred years, after the Jews are outnumbered. Some future generation of Israelis will be like the hippies of our 1960s, and have big love-ins with their Moslem and Christian neighbors.


With all the counter-revolutionaries and inter-factional strife that that will entail.