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Zeraeph
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30 Aug 2011, 5:53 pm

Has anyone even mentioned "Faking Autism Diagnosis" (aka the topic of the thread) recently?

Thought not...

I have even seen myself quoted as saying things I have never even heard of here.



aghogday
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30 Aug 2011, 6:29 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
Has anyone even mentioned "Faking Autism Diagnosis" (aka the topic of the thread) recently?

Thought not...

I have even seen myself quoted as saying things I have never even heard of here.


Two paragraphs up as quoted here:

Quote:
This 165% issue is a problem over there, not one that has been identified here. Going in for a diagnosis, for Aspergers here and getting one, results in little likelyhood of assistance in the US, some don't get one because they are afraid of the stigma of any diagnosis in the workplace; that is fairly clear from many of the responses here on this website.




My understanding is this topic is in response to a report issued in the UK that showed a 165% rise in the cases of autism, and it is suspected that fraudalent claims to get assistance is part of the issue there. I am pointing out to Gedrene, using the best evidence that I can find, that there is no evidence of that type of fraudulent behavior in the US at this time.

The link is broke to the full article so details aren't available there that pertain to the quote from the report.

We are discussing the statistics of Autism in the US, and the question has arisen as to if they are accurate. I've expanded the discussion to the adult Aspergers population; I see these as relevant issues to the topic. There is no real motivation in the US to fake an Aspergers Diagnosis that I can see.

Disability claims are at peak levels, because of the unemployment issue here in the US. The Social Security administration is having problems meeting that demand, but each and every individual will have to go through the same rigorous procedure for approval.

It is much more likely in the US for a person to be disapproved that needs help than for one to be approved that doesn't need help. Aspergers is not seen as by itself as a permanently disabling condition in the US. One can meet requirements with co-morbid conditions if they are severe enough.



Zeraeph
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30 Aug 2011, 6:35 pm

Looks more like the same old manipulating information sources to support fallacious arguments to me...but with an off topic twist...

Why did you quote me as saying something (totally off topic) I had never even heard of?

Did it score some kind of point for you?



Zeraeph
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30 Aug 2011, 6:38 pm

Quote where something I never even heard of was attributed to me.

aghogday wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
Zeraeph wrote:
Gedrene wrote:

Then again in the same sentence there is the claim of 1/100 children in America being autistic, a claim made by Autism Speaks, a claim I think many would be willing to challenge. I wonder how somebody says Autism Speaks in Korean?


Just to clarify the figure quoted on Autism on the Autism Speaks website is 1 in 110, and the information is not a claim by Autism Speaks, it is a reference to information provided by a study from the (CDC) Center for Disease Control, a government agency in the United States.

If one were in disagreement with the statistics they would need to challenge the peer reviewed, scientific research done by the CDC, that determined that prevalence of Autism in the US in 2006 at 1 in 110.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5810a1.htm


Screening just 8 year olds. That can't be vague at all can it? It can't account for all the problems on the ground where people are saying that some can't have autism can it? You home in too quickly on the words peer reviewed. Why don't you review it?

Quote:
An ambitious six-year effort to gauge the rate of childhood autism in a middle-class South Korean city has yielded a figure that stunned experts and is likely to influence the way the disorder’s prevalence is measured around the world, scientists reported on Monday.

The figure, 2.6 percent of all children aged 7 to 12 in the Ilsan district of the city of Goyang, is more than twice the rate usually reported in the developed world. Even that rate, about 1 percent, has been climbing rapidly in recent years — from 0.6 percent in the United States in 2007, for example.

I am not going to all point out the possibility that the possibly flawed methodology here has been used to claim that the level of autism in the land is much higher than everywhere else despite your attempts to press forward a conservative interpretation. Also there is a possibility you can't consider: Autism diagnosis is based on subjective value judgements of a child's personality. You cannot actually measure the cause and with that in mind you should be criticising the roots of what you are seeing.


It's the statistics our government provides for autism in the United States. I don't expect you to accept them, but they are accepted here in the US, as well as the methods they used to arrive at the numbers. I provided the source, just to clarify they were not autism speaks numbers.

Again, the scientists are not suggesting that autism rates are higher in South Korea than other areas of the world. They are using a different screening method that has measured higher rates that has not been used in other areas of the world, so they won't know until they use the method in other areas of the world.

Maybe there are some that point to this evidence that autism rates are rising, but if so, they are interpreting the research in a way that it was not meant to be interpreted by the scientists that reached the conclusions in the study.

I understand psychology is not a perfect science and diagnosis is based in part on the observations of a psychologist. Those that do a thorough examination, do extensive testing to arrive at their results as well, whereas others just do a physical observation and may come to the same results.

I'm not sure how they do it in the UK, or what is commonly accepted; this could have a great deal to do with the results for any individual not to mention the whole country where the statistics are gathered.

These kids in South Korea were screened for Autism; it is a suggestion for rates there with the screening method, but not conclusive in the sense that the children have not received individual diagnoses through a thorough examination, just as was done by a method among the Amish not too long ago that attempted to screen an entire county of children that brought the stats down from what was thought to be 1 in 15,000 to close to 1 in 300. Again though, screened, not a thorough examination for diagnosis.

If either the Amish or South Korean method was used in New Jersey here in the US where diagnosed rates are stated to be 1 in 94, there is no telling what the rate would be there. I, however, wouldn't see it as conclusive, though, until each child was individually diagnosed through extensive examination by a psychologist or a psychiatrist. I'm not sure that would ever happen because of the costs involved. So, even if the screening method were used here it might remain a suggestion of higher rates, rather than a conclusive one, used in government statistics.

So, in both Amish Country and South Korea these screening measures are a suggestion of Autism Rates, but do not necessarily provide the same type of evidence that intensive individual psychiatric/psychological evaluations might bring.

On the other hand the studies down by the CDC and the study done in New Jersey, relies on results from actual diagnosis, so it is the best evidence we have in the US, although it will never be perfect.

Screening Autism to determine the prevalence in children at 8 years old is a specific measure that can reliably capture all ASD's. It's not a vague method at all.

Aspergers often does not show up until later in childhood so by limiting the study to children at age 8, they were able to ensure that they captured all ASD's in children; if they had used younger children in the study it is more likely that some ASD's might not have been diagnosed at earlier ages and captured in the study.

If I'm not making this description clear enough, I can provide further explanation.



Marcia
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30 Aug 2011, 6:44 pm

Re the prevalence of ASDs in children and adults, this study published in 2009 concluded that the prevalence of ASDs among adults in England was the same as among children, at 1% of the population. The study authors do express some caution as the sample size was small.

As for parents shopping around for a diagnosis of autism or Asperger's then I don't even see how that is possible, to be honest. Not in Scotland at any rate. I do know one woman whose son was having difficulties at school, and home, who had more or less convinced herself that Asperger's would be the diagnosis. The grandparents paid for a private assessment, to avoid the lengthy wait on the NHS, and the conclusion was that the boy was not autistic. I've known the child since he was a toddler and I didn't think he would be assessed as autistic, although he definately does have some problems.

My son's assessment involved not only me, his mother, but also his teachers, the school nurse, the educational psychologist, community speech and language therapists and the specialist SLTs who actually assessed him. He was observed at different times at school, and had 2 two hour sessions with the assessors when I was not present. I cannot see how anyone could interfere in that process, which involved so many different people over a period of months, to obtain a diagnosis which they wanted but which wasn't warranted.

The diagnosis doesn't automatically entitle him, or me, to any particular benefits that he wouldn't otherwise be able to access without a diagnosis. It may make it slightly easier if only because the diagnosis works as a kind of "shorthand" explanation, but any accommodations or benefits are based on his particular needs as an individual.



Marcia
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30 Aug 2011, 6:50 pm

The newspaper article quoted in the OP is an Australian newspaper, not the British paper as I had initially thought. So the statistics given and the claimed prevalence of false diagnoses relates to Australia, not the UK.



aghogday
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30 Aug 2011, 7:00 pm

Marcia wrote:
The newspaper article quoted in the OP is an Australian newspaper, not the British paper as I had initially thought. So the statistics given and the claimed prevalence of false diagnoses relates to Australia, not the UK.


Thanks for the clarification, I had heard 1 percent in the UK, before, and couldn't access the article for clarification. Do you have a working link for the article; am interested at would like to read the whole thing if possible?



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30 Aug 2011, 7:03 pm

aghogday wrote:
Marcia wrote:
The newspaper article quoted in the OP is an Australian newspaper, not the British paper as I had initially thought. So the statistics given and the claimed prevalence of false diagnoses relates to Australia, not the UK.


Thanks for the clarification, I had heard 1 percent in the UK, before, and couldn't access the article for clarification. Do you have a working link for the article; am interested at would like to read the whole thing if possible?


If you're talking about a working link to the newspaper article at the start of this thread I couldn't access it either. If you're talking about the English study from 2009, then you should be able to access it by clicking on the words "this study" in my post about it.

I'll see if I can access the stats for Scotland. If I remember correctly, then I think they are the same or maybe even show a higher prevalence.



Zeraeph
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30 Aug 2011, 7:08 pm

Marcia wrote:

As for parents shopping around for a diagnosis of autism or Asperger's then I don't even see how that is possible, to be honest. Not in Scotland at any rate.


I have heard legitimate diagnostic services in Scotland are grossly inadequate, but like everything else it's a lot easier for anyone gaming the system than for legitimate cases. I am not going to...even at gunpoint...but I could tell you how to get a diagnosis and subsequent statement that would hold in Scotland...

...and, of course the hideous Munchausen type conditioning of a child to present as autistic at all times is more likely to go through any assessment favourably as it tends to be aimed at aping typical symptomatic behaviours.

...and once a child is statmented there are considerable advantages in Scotland before we even mentioned whatever sick social and emotional satisfaction the Munchausen type parent derives from being perceived as the parent of an Autistic child...



Marcia
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30 Aug 2011, 7:24 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
Marcia wrote:

As for parents shopping around for a diagnosis of autism or Asperger's then I don't even see how that is possible, to be honest. Not in Scotland at any rate.


I have heard legitimate diagnostic services in Scotland are grossly inadequate, but like everything else it's a lot easier for anyone gaming the system than for legitimate cases. I am not going to...even at gunpoint...but I could tell you how to get a diagnosis and subsequent statement that would hold in Scotland...

...and, of course the hideous Munchausen type conditioning of a child to present as autistic at all times is more likely to go through any assessment favourably as it tends to be aimed at aping typical symptomatic behaviours.

...and once a child is statmented there are considerable advantages in Scotland before we even mentioned whatever sick social and emotional satisfaction the Munchausen type parent derives from being perceived as the parent of an Autistic child...


I don't know what you mean by "statemented". Please explain. That's not a term I have come across.

There is certainly a lengthy wait for assessment in my part of Scotland - 14 months in my son's case, which was partially due to staff being on maternity leave and a lack of locums. However, I fail to see how any one can "game" the system. Please explain or provide some basis for your statements.

I don't discount the possibility of parents tutoring a child to present in a particular way, but instances of that must be few and far between and they would have to get a child to behave in a particular way for a lengthy and sustained period of time in the presence of all the professional adults they come in contact with. I find it impossible to believe that this is remotely common.

It is, unfortunately, a fact that there are children who have severe social communication difficulties because of parental neglect/abuse, often caused by parental addiction to drugs and alcohol. This is a particular problem in Glasgow, where nurture groups have been set up in schools to help these children.



aghogday
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30 Aug 2011, 7:37 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
Quote where something I never even heard of was attributed to me.


Gedrene made that comment, that I quoted from him on my post I made on page 2. It clearly states Gedrene Wrote: right above it.

My response back to Gedrene was after that, I have no idea why it formatted that way in the quote you presented; in that quote the formatting makes my words look like your words, but I see no indication of participation from you in my specific original post, that has not been edited. It is clear to me that you were not involved in that conversastion from the way my post was presented on the page. Check it again if you will on page 2. Thanks.



Zeraeph
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30 Aug 2011, 7:46 pm

Marcia wrote:

I don't know what you mean by "statemented". Please explain. That's not a term I have come across.


Provided with a statement of needs as per the UK system, I am assuming there is a Scottish equivalent...too late to check it today, but I won't be tomorrow. :)

(Record of needs until 2005 when it may have become a "Co-ordinated support plan" not sure if the change was ratified, but it's exactly the same thing as a statement of needs UK to all intents and purposes)

Marcia wrote:
There is certainly a lengthy wait for assessment in my part of Scotland - 14 months in my son's case, which was partially due to staff being on maternity leave and a lack of locums. However, I fail to see how any one can "game" the system. Please explain or provide some basis for your statements.


Sorry...I have no intention of publishing detailed instructions on "how to game the system" under any circumstances, you will have to get the information elsewhere.

Marcia wrote:
I don't discount the possibility of parents tutoring a child to present in a particular way, but instances of that must be few and far between and they would have to get a child to behave in a particular way for a lengthy and sustained period of time in the presence of all the professional adults they come in contact with. I find it impossible to believe that this is remotely common.


ONE child conditioned to behave like an autistic...and thus destroyed for life, is one too many...full stop...parents who do that belong in prison, for life...

Marcia wrote:
It is, unfortunately, a fact that there are children who have severe social communication difficulties because of parental neglect/abuse, often caused by parental addiction to drugs and alcohol. This is a particular problem in Glasgow, where nurture groups have been set up in schools to help these children.


Foetal Alcohol Syndrome, reactive attachment disorder...both easy to mistake for autism...



Zeraeph
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30 Aug 2011, 7:53 pm

aghogday wrote:
Zeraeph wrote:
Quote where something I never even heard of was attributed to me.


Gedrene made that comment, that I quoted from him on my post I made on page 2. It clearly states Gedrene Wrote: right above it.

My response back to Gedrene was after that, I have no idea why it formatted that way in the quote you presented; in that quote the formatting makes my words look like your words, but I see no indication of participation from you in my specific original post, that has not been edited. It is clear to me that you were not involved in that conversastion from the way my post was presented on the page. Check it again if you will on page 2. Thanks.


Excuses, excuses...

I would say "Please don't do it again" but I just know that, whatever you say, you will do it again first chance you get...so what's the point?



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30 Aug 2011, 8:16 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
Marcia wrote:

I don't know what you mean by "statemented". Please explain. That's not a term I have come across.


Provided with a statement of needs as per the UK system, I am assuming there is a Scottish equivalent...too late to check it today, but I won't be tomorrow. :)

(Record of needs until 2005 when it may have become a "Co-ordinated support plan" not sure if the change was ratified, but it's exactly the same thing as a statement of needs UK to all intents and purposes)

Marcia wrote:
There is certainly a lengthy wait for assessment in my part of Scotland - 14 months in my son's case, which was partially due to staff being on maternity leave and a lack of locums. However, I fail to see how any one can "game" the system. Please explain or provide some basis for your statements.


Sorry...I have no intention of publishing detailed instructions on "how to game the system" under any circumstances, you will have to get the information elsewhere.

Marcia wrote:
I don't discount the possibility of parents tutoring a child to present in a particular way, but instances of that must be few and far between and they would have to get a child to behave in a particular way for a lengthy and sustained period of time in the presence of all the professional adults they come in contact with. I find it impossible to believe that this is remotely common.


ONE child conditioned to behave like an autistic...and thus destroyed for life, is one too many...full stop...parents who do that belong in prison, for life...

Marcia wrote:
It is, unfortunately, a fact that there are children who have severe social communication difficulties because of parental neglect/abuse, often caused by parental addiction to drugs and alcohol. This is a particular problem in Glasgow, where nurture groups have been set up in schools to help these children.


Foetal Alcohol Syndrome, reactive attachment disorder...both easy to mistake for autism...


There is no such thing as a "UK system" for education or health. My son has a Co-ordinated Support Plan in terms of the Education (Additional Support for Learning)(Scotland) Act 2004. A diagnosis of Asperger's is not essential for this, but does, as I pointed out earlier, make it easier as the diagnosis is a form of shorthand.

I dislike it when people make sweeping and dramatic statements without backing them up with any evidence. Unless you provide any evidence I'll disregard your comments as irrelevant and meaningless.

I have spent time with children in nurture groups in one primary school in Glasgow and there was never any suggestion that they were autistic. Their particular circumstances and needs were recognised for what they were. In that school I did come across one boy who did have a diagnosis of autism and he was not in a nurture group because his needs were different and being met by people who work with autistic children.

I have had a wee look about the internet for information about Munchausen's by Proxy and its relationship with autism. I didn't find any mention of adults trying to obtain a diagnosis of autism for children who weren't autistic, but I did find articles relating to the potential risk of professionals with a poor understanding of autism failing to recognise the autism and instead accusing the parent of Munchausen's by Proxy. That's pretty much the opposite of what you are saying.

I can understand how someone can fake physical symptoms in a child, by use of medications etc, overheating the child to induce a high temperature etc. But I can't believe that anyone could coach a child to appear autistic. It is too complex, too nuanced.



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30 Aug 2011, 8:22 pm

Zeraeph wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Zeraeph wrote:
Quote where something I never even heard of was attributed to me.


Gedrene made that comment, that I quoted from him on my post I made on page 2. It clearly states Gedrene Wrote: right above it.

My response back to Gedrene was after that, I have no idea why it formatted that way in the quote you presented; in that quote the formatting makes my words look like your words, but I see no indication of participation from you in my specific original post, that has not been edited. It is clear to me that you were not involved in that conversastion from the way my post was presented on the page. Check it again if you will on page 2. Thanks.


Excuses, excuses...

I would say "Please don't do it again" but I just know that, whatever you say, you will do it again first chance you get...so what's the point?


I haven't touched the posts you can look again if you like. Apparently in Gedrene's post back from my original post the formatting got messed up in his post, it is clear if you look at it. After that I responded to his post, that had the incorrect formatting in it. I cannot correct his post where the error occurred, but I can correct the post where I responded back to his post that had the error in it, and will be happy to do that if you like.

Seeing that you attribute the mistake to me as an intentional one, I will leave it as is until you respond back and acknowledge I did not make the error, that made it look like you were saying what I was saying that occured in Gedrene's post.

I don't see why Gedrene would intentionally do that; would make no sense because my post before it makes it clear that it is my words not your words, I'm sure he will correct his post if you bring it to his attention. I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't notice the full context of the mistake the first time you looked at it, I had to look again to see it.



Zeraeph
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30 Aug 2011, 8:41 pm

Marcia wrote:

There is no such thing as a "UK system" for education or health. My son has a Co-ordinated Support Plan in terms of the Education (Additional Support for Learning)(Scotland) Act 2004. A diagnosis of Asperger's is not essential for this, but does, as I pointed out earlier, make it easier as the diagnosis is a form of shorthand.


Sorry, slip of the keyboard...I meant the English and Welsh system...where a Statement of needs is an near exact equivalent of the Scottish Co-ordinated Support Plan - I am really surprised you did not know that?

Marcia wrote:
I dislike it when people make sweeping and dramatic statements without backing them up with any evidence. Unless you provide any evidence I'll disregard your comments as irrelevant and meaningless.


Duly noted.

Marcia wrote:
I have spent time with children in nurture groups in one primary school in Glasgow and there was never any suggestion that they were autistic. Their particular circumstances and needs were recognised for what they were. In that school I did come across one boy who did have a diagnosis of autism and he was not in a nurture group because his needs were different and being met by people who work with autistic children.


What's the expression:
I dislike it when people make sweeping and dramatic statements without backing them up with any evidence. Unless you provide any evidence I'll disregard your comments as irrelevant and meaningless.

Nah that's too pretentious for me...so I think I'll stick with a simple "prove it".

Marcia wrote:
I have had a wee look about the internet for information about Munchausen's by Proxy and its relationship with autism. I didn't find any mention of adults trying to obtain a diagnosis of autism for children who weren't autistic, but I did find articles relating to the potential risk of professionals with a poor understanding of autism failing to recognise the autism and instead accusing the parent of Munchausen's by Proxy. That's pretty much the opposite of what you are saying.


No, what I have seen was not usually on the internet and was most definately parents conditioning the child to act autistic and in some cases crossing continents to conceal the truth...they belong in prison...but it is so hard to prove, as I feel sure you know.

Marcia wrote:
I can understand how someone can fake physical symptoms in a child, by use of medications etc, overheating the child to induce a high temperature etc. But I can't believe that anyone could coach a child to appear autistic. It is too complex, too nuanced.


Not to mention downright evil, but it happens...if you start in infancy you could use ABA to do it...to the point when the victim doesn't have a clue who or what they are.