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pandabear
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17 Sep 2011, 2:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:
pandabear wrote:


Given the transportation and technology circa 1860 how could the census buro know for sure all the aboriginals were counted?

The means for an accurate count did not exist then. Even today, the Census is only an approximation.

ruveyn


Back in those days, the population was a lot smaller, and I think that they did a more thorough job of counting than today. Indians on reservations (and in White areas) would have been counted. Indians still living off the bison on the Great Plains probably would not have been counted.



ruveyn
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17 Sep 2011, 2:36 pm

pandabear wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
pandabear wrote:


Given the transportation and technology circa 1860 how could the census buro know for sure all the aboriginals were counted?

The means for an accurate count did not exist then. Even today, the Census is only an approximation.

ruveyn


Back in those days, the population was a lot smaller, and I think that they did a more thorough job of counting than today. Indians on reservations (and in White areas) would have been counted. Indians still living off the bison on the Great Plains probably would not have been counted.


And the distances were daunting. In the west the area covered by the railroads was small and there were very few trails and roads. There is no way a complete and accurate census of the aboriginal population could have taken place outside the reservations.

ruveyn



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17 Sep 2011, 4:40 pm

There were Indians who did in fact fight for the Union. In fact, when Lee surrendered at Appomattox, he was rather surprised that Grant had an Indian serving as an officer, who was present there.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



pandabear
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17 Sep 2011, 5:26 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_i ... _Civil_War

After the Civil War, Cherokees were forced to adopt their slaves into their tribe.



Joker
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17 Sep 2011, 10:26 pm

pandabear wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_in_the_American_Civil_War

After the Civil War, Cherokees were forced to adopt their slaves into their tribe.


It was common for tribes of any kind to use slavery



pandabear
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18 Sep 2011, 12:01 pm

Joker wrote:
pandabear wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherokee_in_the_American_Civil_War

After the Civil War, Cherokees were forced to adopt their slaves into their tribe.


It was common for tribes of any kind to use slavery


I'm guessing that tribes that lived primarily by hunting and gathering had little use for slaves. Incas and Aztecs may have had slaves. Cherokees, who had farms, had Black slaves to work on the farms.



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18 Sep 2011, 2:23 pm

Joker wrote:
And your point slavery ended during the civil war any way the south economy was fading away


There's a spectrum of beliefs about that, actually. Personally I think it was fading in the northern end of what were considered "slave" states (Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, probably Tennessee, and there was even still slavery in Delaware in 1860) but the picture becomes much less clear in the deep south. Possibly plantation slavery in places like Mississippi and Louisiana was more profitable than ever in 1860, but I've also read that in places like South Carolina the soil was so denuded of nutrients from decades of cotton planting that yields were drastically falling. And that land had become so relatively expensive that a lot of poor whites were actually leaving the deep South starting in 1830 or so, and moving to places like Illinois or Iowa...where their sons returned in blue uniforms a generation later.

But you can find economic historians all over the map on that point.

Quote:
and the norths was booming at the time


That was actually a bone in the collective South's throat. The North was booming , at least in part, because the US had very high tariff walls on foreign imports. This favored the Northern manufacturers and hurt the agrarian South, which wanted to buy cheaper (and possibly better quality) imports.

There was almost a Civil War circa the 1830s over the Nullification Crisis when South Carolina unilaterally declared the tariff laws passed by Congress void. BTW, I don't buy this as the cause of the Civil War twenty five years later, as Southern apologists sometimes try to claim.

Quote:
it was a poltical issue between the north can south plus most cherokee and others indians where on the souths side because it was the yanks that took their land in the first place


Since the Cherokee were originally from a space roughly running from Georgia to North Carolina, please explain how Yankees were the ones taking their land. :roll:

Curiously, the US Supreme Court upheld a treaty with the Cherokee that in large part would have let them stay where they were. Andrew Jackson ignored them, and hence the Trail of Tears. (Whether Jackson actually said [Chief Justice] "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" has its doubters, but I think most now take it as being an accurate quote. )


_________________
"The man who has fed the chicken every day throughout its life at last wrings its neck instead, showing that more refined views as to the uniformity of nature would have been useful to the chicken." ? Bertrand Russell


Kraichgauer
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18 Sep 2011, 5:00 pm

WorldsEdge wrote:
Joker wrote:
And your point slavery ended during the civil war any way the south economy was fading away


There's a spectrum of beliefs about that, actually. Personally I think it was fading in the northern end of what were considered "slave" states (Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, probably Tennessee, and there was even still slavery in Delaware in 1860) but the picture becomes much less clear in the deep south. Possibly plantation slavery in places like Mississippi and Louisiana was more profitable than ever in 1860, but I've also read that in places like South Carolina the soil was so denuded of nutrients from decades of cotton planting that yields were drastically falling. And that land had become so relatively expensive that a lot of poor whites were actually leaving the deep South starting in 1830 or so, and moving to places like Illinois or Iowa...where their sons returned in blue uniforms a generation later.

But you can find economic historians all over the map on that point.

Quote:
and the norths was booming at the time


That was actually a bone in the collective South's throat. The North was booming , at least in part, because the US had very high tariff walls on foreign imports. This favored the Northern manufacturers and hurt the agrarian South, which wanted to buy cheaper (and possibly better quality) imports.

There was almost a Civil War circa the 1830s over the Nullification Crisis when South Carolina unilaterally declared the tariff laws passed by Congress void. BTW, I don't buy this as the cause of the Civil War twenty five years later, as Southern apologists sometimes try to claim.

Quote:
it was a poltical issue between the north can south plus most cherokee and others indians where on the souths side because it was the yanks that took their land in the first place


Since the Cherokee were originally from a space roughly running from Georgia to North Carolina, please explain how Yankees were the ones taking their land. :roll:

Curiously, the US Supreme Court upheld a treaty with the Cherokee that in large part would have let them stay where they were. Andrew Jackson ignored them, and hence the Trail of Tears. (Whether Jackson actually said [Chief Justice] "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" has its doubters, but I think most now take it as being an accurate quote. )


Davey Crockett, while in congress, had opposed Jackson in forcing the Cherokee to Indian country. That cost Davey his seat, which in turn spurned him to head to Texas, and the Alamo. The rest is history.
Or, perhaps to put it more succinctly-
OH MY GOD! Andrew Jackson killed Davey Crockett!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Joker
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19 Sep 2011, 6:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
WorldsEdge wrote:
Joker wrote:
And your point slavery ended during the civil war any way the south economy was fading away


There's a spectrum of beliefs about that, actually. Personally I think it was fading in the northern end of what were considered "slave" states (Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, probably Tennessee, and there was even still slavery in Delaware in 1860) but the picture becomes much less clear in the deep south. Possibly plantation slavery in places like Mississippi and Louisiana was more profitable than ever in 1860, but I've also read that in places like South Carolina the soil was so denuded of nutrients from decades of cotton planting that yields were drastically falling. And that land had become so relatively expensive that a lot of poor whites were actually leaving the deep South starting in 1830 or so, and moving to places like Illinois or Iowa...where their sons returned in blue uniforms a generation later.

But you can find economic historians all over the map on that point.

Quote:
and the norths was booming at the time


That was actually a bone in the collective South's throat. The North was booming , at least in part, because the US had very high tariff walls on foreign imports. This favored the Northern manufacturers and hurt the agrarian South, which wanted to buy cheaper (and possibly better quality) imports.

There was almost a Civil War circa the 1830s over the Nullification Crisis when South Carolina unilaterally declared the tariff laws passed by Congress void. BTW, I don't buy this as the cause of the Civil War twenty five years later, as Southern apologists sometimes try to claim.

Quote:
it was a poltical issue between the north can south plus most cherokee and others indians where on the souths side because it was the yanks that took their land in the first place


Since the Cherokee were originally from a space roughly running from Georgia to North Carolina, please explain how Yankees were the ones taking their land. :roll:

Curiously, the US Supreme Court upheld a treaty with the Cherokee that in large part would have let them stay where they were. Andrew Jackson ignored them, and hence the Trail of Tears. (Whether Jackson actually said [Chief Justice] "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" has its doubters, but I think most now take it as being an accurate quote. )


Davey Crockett, while in congress, had opposed Jackson in forcing the Cherokee to Indian country. That cost Davey his seat, which in turn spurned him to head to Texas, and the Alamo. The rest is history.
Or, perhaps to put it more succinctly-
OH MY GOD! Andrew Jackson killed Davey Crockett!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thank you Kraichgauer btw africa sold us their slaves in the first place slavery was being practice every where not just in america



Kraichgauer
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19 Sep 2011, 6:45 pm

Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
WorldsEdge wrote:
Joker wrote:
And your point slavery ended during the civil war any way the south economy was fading away


There's a spectrum of beliefs about that, actually. Personally I think it was fading in the northern end of what were considered "slave" states (Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, probably Tennessee, and there was even still slavery in Delaware in 1860) but the picture becomes much less clear in the deep south. Possibly plantation slavery in places like Mississippi and Louisiana was more profitable than ever in 1860, but I've also read that in places like South Carolina the soil was so denuded of nutrients from decades of cotton planting that yields were drastically falling. And that land had become so relatively expensive that a lot of poor whites were actually leaving the deep South starting in 1830 or so, and moving to places like Illinois or Iowa...where their sons returned in blue uniforms a generation later.

But you can find economic historians all over the map on that point.

Quote:
and the norths was booming at the time


That was actually a bone in the collective South's throat. The North was booming , at least in part, because the US had very high tariff walls on foreign imports. This favored the Northern manufacturers and hurt the agrarian South, which wanted to buy cheaper (and possibly better quality) imports.

There was almost a Civil War circa the 1830s over the Nullification Crisis when South Carolina unilaterally declared the tariff laws passed by Congress void. BTW, I don't buy this as the cause of the Civil War twenty five years later, as Southern apologists sometimes try to claim.

Quote:
it was a poltical issue between the north can south plus most cherokee and others indians where on the souths side because it was the yanks that took their land in the first place


Since the Cherokee were originally from a space roughly running from Georgia to North Carolina, please explain how Yankees were the ones taking their land. :roll:

Curiously, the US Supreme Court upheld a treaty with the Cherokee that in large part would have let them stay where they were. Andrew Jackson ignored them, and hence the Trail of Tears. (Whether Jackson actually said [Chief Justice] "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" has its doubters, but I think most now take it as being an accurate quote. )


Davey Crockett, while in congress, had opposed Jackson in forcing the Cherokee to Indian country. That cost Davey his seat, which in turn spurned him to head to Texas, and the Alamo. The rest is history.
Or, perhaps to put it more succinctly-
OH MY GOD! Andrew Jackson killed Davey Crockett!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thank you Kraichgauer btw africa sold us their slaves in the first place slavery was being practice every where not just in america


Uh, I was talking about how Davey Crockett went off to his death to the Alamo because he had opposed Andrew Jackson's removal of Indians, and their march on the Trail of Tears. I had written nothing about the slave trade, or the presumed sole guilt of Americans, while ignoring the participation of black Africans.
For what it's worth, I am well aware of the fact that some African tribes raided other African tribes in order to supply the slave trade. My pastor, who had for years been a missionary in Nigeria, had told how those tribes who had been victimized by their neighbors centuries ago in the slave trade still burn with vengeance for what had been done to their ancestors.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Joker
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19 Sep 2011, 6:52 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
WorldsEdge wrote:
Joker wrote:
And your point slavery ended during the civil war any way the south economy was fading away


There's a spectrum of beliefs about that, actually. Personally I think it was fading in the northern end of what were considered "slave" states (Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, probably Tennessee, and there was even still slavery in Delaware in 1860) but the picture becomes much less clear in the deep south. Possibly plantation slavery in places like Mississippi and Louisiana was more profitable than ever in 1860, but I've also read that in places like South Carolina the soil was so denuded of nutrients from decades of cotton planting that yields were drastically falling. And that land had become so relatively expensive that a lot of poor whites were actually leaving the deep South starting in 1830 or so, and moving to places like Illinois or Iowa...where their sons returned in blue uniforms a generation later.

But you can find economic historians all over the map on that point.

Quote:
and the norths was booming at the time


That was actually a bone in the collective South's throat. The North was booming , at least in part, because the US had very high tariff walls on foreign imports. This favored the Northern manufacturers and hurt the agrarian South, which wanted to buy cheaper (and possibly better quality) imports.

There was almost a Civil War circa the 1830s over the Nullification Crisis when South Carolina unilaterally declared the tariff laws passed by Congress void. BTW, I don't buy this as the cause of the Civil War twenty five years later, as Southern apologists sometimes try to claim.

Quote:
it was a poltical issue between the north can south plus most cherokee and others indians where on the souths side because it was the yanks that took their land in the first place


Since the Cherokee were originally from a space roughly running from Georgia to North Carolina, please explain how Yankees were the ones taking their land. :roll:

Curiously, the US Supreme Court upheld a treaty with the Cherokee that in large part would have let them stay where they were. Andrew Jackson ignored them, and hence the Trail of Tears. (Whether Jackson actually said [Chief Justice] "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" has its doubters, but I think most now take it as being an accurate quote. )


Davey Crockett, while in congress, had opposed Jackson in forcing the Cherokee to Indian country. That cost Davey his seat, which in turn spurned him to head to Texas, and the Alamo. The rest is history.
Or, perhaps to put it more succinctly-
OH MY GOD! Andrew Jackson killed Davey Crockett!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thank you Kraichgauer btw africa sold us their slaves in the first place slavery was being practice every where not just in america


Uh, I was talking about how Davey Crockett went off to his death to the Alamo because he had opposed Andrew Jackson's removal of Indians, and their march on the Trail of Tears. I had written nothing about the slave trade, or the presumed sole guilt of Americans, while ignoring the participation of black Africans.
For what it's worth, I am well aware of the fact that some African tribes raided other African tribes in order to supply the slave trade. My pastor, who had for years been a missionary in Nigeria, had told how those tribes who had been victimized by their neighbors centuries ago in the slave trade still burn with vengeance for what had been done to their ancestors.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I said thank you because I agreed with you

Also I do not hold any kind of hatred for those that made my ancestors march in the trail of tears it was a sad time in history but the american indian people are strong are will still hasnt been broken



Kraichgauer
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19 Sep 2011, 7:00 pm

Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
WorldsEdge wrote:
Joker wrote:
And your point slavery ended during the civil war any way the south economy was fading away


There's a spectrum of beliefs about that, actually. Personally I think it was fading in the northern end of what were considered "slave" states (Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, probably Tennessee, and there was even still slavery in Delaware in 1860) but the picture becomes much less clear in the deep south. Possibly plantation slavery in places like Mississippi and Louisiana was more profitable than ever in 1860, but I've also read that in places like South Carolina the soil was so denuded of nutrients from decades of cotton planting that yields were drastically falling. And that land had become so relatively expensive that a lot of poor whites were actually leaving the deep South starting in 1830 or so, and moving to places like Illinois or Iowa...where their sons returned in blue uniforms a generation later.

But you can find economic historians all over the map on that point.

Quote:
and the norths was booming at the time


That was actually a bone in the collective South's throat. The North was booming , at least in part, because the US had very high tariff walls on foreign imports. This favored the Northern manufacturers and hurt the agrarian South, which wanted to buy cheaper (and possibly better quality) imports.

There was almost a Civil War circa the 1830s over the Nullification Crisis when South Carolina unilaterally declared the tariff laws passed by Congress void. BTW, I don't buy this as the cause of the Civil War twenty five years later, as Southern apologists sometimes try to claim.

Quote:
it was a poltical issue between the north can south plus most cherokee and others indians where on the souths side because it was the yanks that took their land in the first place


Since the Cherokee were originally from a space roughly running from Georgia to North Carolina, please explain how Yankees were the ones taking their land. :roll:

Curiously, the US Supreme Court upheld a treaty with the Cherokee that in large part would have let them stay where they were. Andrew Jackson ignored them, and hence the Trail of Tears. (Whether Jackson actually said [Chief Justice] "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" has its doubters, but I think most now take it as being an accurate quote. )


Davey Crockett, while in congress, had opposed Jackson in forcing the Cherokee to Indian country. That cost Davey his seat, which in turn spurned him to head to Texas, and the Alamo. The rest is history.
Or, perhaps to put it more succinctly-
OH MY GOD! Andrew Jackson killed Davey Crockett!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thank you Kraichgauer btw africa sold us their slaves in the first place slavery was being practice every where not just in america


Uh, I was talking about how Davey Crockett went off to his death to the Alamo because he had opposed Andrew Jackson's removal of Indians, and their march on the Trail of Tears. I had written nothing about the slave trade, or the presumed sole guilt of Americans, while ignoring the participation of black Africans.
For what it's worth, I am well aware of the fact that some African tribes raided other African tribes in order to supply the slave trade. My pastor, who had for years been a missionary in Nigeria, had told how those tribes who had been victimized by their neighbors centuries ago in the slave trade still burn with vengeance for what had been done to their ancestors.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I said thank you because I agreed with you

Also I do not hold any kind of hatred for those that made my ancestors march in the trail of tears it was a sad time in history but the american indian people are strong are will still hasnt been broken


I apologize; I misunderstood your post.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Joker
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20 Sep 2011, 2:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
WorldsEdge wrote:
Joker wrote:
And your point slavery ended during the civil war any way the south economy was fading away


There's a spectrum of beliefs about that, actually. Personally I think it was fading in the northern end of what were considered "slave" states (Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, probably Tennessee, and there was even still slavery in Delaware in 1860) but the picture becomes much less clear in the deep south. Possibly plantation slavery in places like Mississippi and Louisiana was more profitable than ever in 1860, but I've also read that in places like South Carolina the soil was so denuded of nutrients from decades of cotton planting that yields were drastically falling. And that land had become so relatively expensive that a lot of poor whites were actually leaving the deep South starting in 1830 or so, and moving to places like Illinois or Iowa...where their sons returned in blue uniforms a generation later.

But you can find economic historians all over the map on that point.

Quote:
and the norths was booming at the time


That was actually a bone in the collective South's throat. The North was booming , at least in part, because the US had very high tariff walls on foreign imports. This favored the Northern manufacturers and hurt the agrarian South, which wanted to buy cheaper (and possibly better quality) imports.

There was almost a Civil War circa the 1830s over the Nullification Crisis when South Carolina unilaterally declared the tariff laws passed by Congress void. BTW, I don't buy this as the cause of the Civil War twenty five years later, as Southern apologists sometimes try to claim.

Quote:
it was a poltical issue between the north can south plus most cherokee and others indians where on the souths side because it was the yanks that took their land in the first place


Since the Cherokee were originally from a space roughly running from Georgia to North Carolina, please explain how Yankees were the ones taking their land. :roll:

Curiously, the US Supreme Court upheld a treaty with the Cherokee that in large part would have let them stay where they were. Andrew Jackson ignored them, and hence the Trail of Tears. (Whether Jackson actually said [Chief Justice] "John Marshall has made his decision, now let him enforce it!" has its doubters, but I think most now take it as being an accurate quote. )


Davey Crockett, while in congress, had opposed Jackson in forcing the Cherokee to Indian country. That cost Davey his seat, which in turn spurned him to head to Texas, and the Alamo. The rest is history.
Or, perhaps to put it more succinctly-
OH MY GOD! Andrew Jackson killed Davey Crockett!

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thank you Kraichgauer btw africa sold us their slaves in the first place slavery was being practice every where not just in america


Uh, I was talking about how Davey Crockett went off to his death to the Alamo because he had opposed Andrew Jackson's removal of Indians, and their march on the Trail of Tears. I had written nothing about the slave trade, or the presumed sole guilt of Americans, while ignoring the participation of black Africans.
For what it's worth, I am well aware of the fact that some African tribes raided other African tribes in order to supply the slave trade. My pastor, who had for years been a missionary in Nigeria, had told how those tribes who had been victimized by their neighbors centuries ago in the slave trade still burn with vengeance for what had been done to their ancestors.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I said thank you because I agreed with you

Also I do not hold any kind of hatred for those that made my ancestors march in the trail of tears it was a sad time in history but the american indian people are strong are will still hasnt been broken


I apologize; I misunderstood your post.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


No problem happens to me all the time