Is Khodorkovsky question really a Jewish question?

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What will best describe you?
I live in USA/Canada; I am pro-Israel; I view Khodorkovsky as innocent 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in USA/Canada; I am pro-Israel; I view Khodorkovsky as guilty 20%  20%  [ 1 ]
I live in USA/Canada; I am pro-Palestine; I view Khodorkovsky as innocent 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in USA/Canada; I am pro-Palestine; I view Khodorkovsky as guilty 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in Western Europe; I am pro-Israel; I view Khodorkovsky as innocent 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in Western Europe; I am pro-Israel; I view Khodorkovsky as guilty 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in Western Europe; I am pro-Palestine; I view Khodorkovsky as innocent 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in Western Europe; I am pro-Palestine; I view Khodorkovsky as guilty 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in Eastern Europe; I am pro-Israel; I view Khodorkovsky as innocent 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in Eastern Europe; I am pro-Israel; I view Khodorkovsky as guilty 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in Eastern Europe; I am pro-Palestine; I view Khodorkovsky as innocent 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I live in Eastern Europe; I am pro-Palestine; I view Khodorkovsky as guilty 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other 80%  80%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 5

Roman
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16 Sep 2011, 3:01 pm

I notice an interesting correlation: almost all Jews view Khodorkovsky as innocent, and almost all antisemites view him as guilty. As far as non-Jewish people go, the ones who are pro-Israel tend to be a lot more supportive of Khodorkovsky than the ones that are pro-Palestine. Now if we talk "across countries" this is a bit more complicated. Russia is far more likely to view Khodorkovsky as guilty than Europe; but it is a lot more difficult to compare the Russian vs European attitudes towards Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Nevertheless, the pattern holds true within each given country. For example, any Western antisemites I know of (such as David Duke) are all viewing Khodorkovsky as guilty, despite the fact that overwhelming majority of people living in their countries view him as innocent. Also, if you look within Russia, only 4% are positive that he is innocent; but I am fairly confident that the 1% of Russian population which are Jews are all part of the 4% that are pro-Khodorkovsky (and the other 3% are probably either part Jews, or have Jewish friends, or pro-Jewish for other reasons).

Anyway I would like to make an opinion poll to see if the correlation of opinions I suspect takes place



ruveyn
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16 Sep 2011, 3:06 pm

Roman wrote:
I notice an interesting correlation: almost all Jews view Khodorkovsky as innocent, and almost all antisemites view him as guilty. As far as non-Jewish people go, the ones who are pro-Israel tend to be a lot more supportive of Khodorkovsky than the ones that are pro-Palestine. Now if we talk "across countries" this is a bit more complicated. Russia is far more likely to view Khodorkovsky as guilty than Europe; but it is a lot more difficult to compare the Russian vs European attitudes towards Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Nevertheless, the pattern holds true within each given country. For example, any Western antisemites I know of (such as David Duke) are all viewing Khodorkovsky as guilty, despite the fact that overwhelming majority of people living in their countries view him as innocent. Also, if you look within Russia, only 4% are positive that he is innocent; but I am fairly confident that the 1% of Russian population which are Jews are all part of the 4% that are pro-Khodorkovsky (and the other 3% are probably either part Jews, or have Jewish friends, or pro-Jewish for other reasons).

Anyway I would like to make an opinion poll to see if the correlation of opinions I suspect takes place


Who is Khodorkovsky?

ruveyn



Roman
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visagrunt
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16 Sep 2011, 4:37 pm

I see absolutely no correlation between Khodorkovsky and support for Israel.

I have my doubts about the transparency and fairness of the Russian judicial process--but I also have my doubts about the transparency and fairness of Russian business practices. Show me an honest man in Russia with $1million, and I will lay odds that he started out with $10million.

Which has nothing, whatsoever, to do with my support for Israel nor my belief in a two-state solution in the middle east.


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Fnord
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16 Sep 2011, 4:49 pm

Other: I live in the U.S. of A., I do not care at all about the "Israel/Palestine" situation, and I care even less about Khodorkovsky.


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naturalplastic
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16 Sep 2011, 5:00 pm

Finnally- the one single diagnostic test that proves that a subject is an aspie: the fact the subject has NEVER EVEN HEARD of the pop singer Micheal Jackson, but at the same time the subject assumes that everyone on the planet not only knows who Khordorsky is, but shares the subject's obsession with lying awake at night wondering about whether Khordorsky is guilty or not!

ROLFL!

You forgot two options in your poll: "Dont know who the heck Khordorsky is." and "Know who he is but dont give a rats behind about it."

Okay.. im done rolling on the floor laughing.. Im sorry.
But still.. I doubt that Rev and myself are alone among americans in not knowing who this guy is.

Maybe we SHOULD know his name- he was apparently comparble to Rupert Murdoch.

But when I read your Wicki connection... well he WAS convicted twice.. and the outside European court upheld the conviction. So I would guess that he is indeed guilty. They all said he is so he must be. Its not obvious why I should be excited about the case one way or the other.



ruveyn
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16 Sep 2011, 5:14 pm

Khodorkovsky and his fate are of no particular interest to me.

ruveyn



Roman
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16 Sep 2011, 7:18 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
But when I read your Wicki connection... well he WAS convicted twice.. and the outside European court upheld the conviction.


Actually according to Europe he is innocent and the Europe tries to pressure the Russian courts to say he is innocent, but Russian courts insist that he is guilty.

A lot of people claim that the real reason he is imprisoned is that he opposed Putin. Since convicting someone for political opinions would be illegal, they had to make up that he did some crimes.

I myself haven't read Khodorkovsky case. But from what my mom told me, a lot of charges against him are ridiculous. For example, she said that the ammount of oil Khodorkovsky allegedly stole equals to the amount of oil in the entire country. She also told me that if what accusers said is to be taken seriously, he had to literally steal large amounts of oil by hands which would have been physically impossible to do.



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16 Sep 2011, 8:06 pm

A lot of people believe that he is innocent - big, fat, hairy deal. Just because "everyone" believes in his innocence, that do not make him any less guilty, since the courts heard more of the evidence in greater detail than "everyone else" ever did.

So, did you start this thread to troll for reactions, or do you have a plan to spring him out of jail?


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xenon13
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16 Sep 2011, 8:34 pm

The Khordokovsky issue is also linked to one's support for Yeltsinism... for the whole ghastly events of 1990s Russia. If Jewish people back Khordorkovsky, it's because they see him as part of their group.

There is one little conflict of interest I have noticed here. It's in the interest of Zionists that Russia do as badly as possible as this induces Russian Jews to go to Israel. Many of these oligarchy people are Jewish and Zionist and they had lots of power under Yeltsin. They also became close to American neoconservatives. Part of the issue is that some may see themselves as part of something other than Russia, something they consider to be stronger. So they back that tendency.

When Russia started doing better many of these Russian Jews started returning to Russia.

It's important to understand that not all Jewish Russians and important Jewish Russians think this way; many do not. It's really a question of what people do, not if they are Jewish or not. The Jewishness may explain actions in terms of how they see themselves and their role.



Fogman
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17 Sep 2011, 2:03 pm

Other.

The situation in Russia is murky on all sides, with questionable deals going on both in the Government as well as with the way that the Russian Oligarchs acquired their wealth in the 1990's.

As far as Israel is concerned, I would like to see a fair and equitable peace settlement reached for both sides, however neither side appears to be seriously interested in reaching a fair and equitable peace settlement, so if they feel like killing each other off in tit-for-tat attacks that's fine with me as I am removed from living that reality.

I base my opinion on the latter by noticing the absence of a popular movement/uprising on either the Israeli or Palestinian sides actively voicing themselves in a manner of the 'Arab Spring' uprisings in Egypt and other countries protesting corrupt government, so it appears obvious in that light that there is no serious commitment to a peace settlement.


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Roman
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18 Sep 2011, 10:10 am

xenon13 wrote:
There is one little conflict of interest I have noticed here. It's in the interest of Zionists that Russia do as badly as possible as this induces Russian Jews to go to Israel.


It is interesting that you are not saying "Jews trying to weaken and/or dominate America" or any other country for that matter; you apply it strictly to Russia. If what you say is true, could this be an explanation why Russians appear to be "more antisemitic" than Americans? If so, could it be that Americans are "just as much antisemitic as Russians are" in a sense that Americans would agree with the statement "Jews are trying to weaken RUSSIA", they just won't care since they don't live in Russia?

Take you, for example. Your user name doesn't sound Russian. So am I correct in assuming that you are American? If so, would you agree with the statement "Jews are trying to weaken/dominate America"? If not, then you are not antisemitic by American standards. But, at the same time, from what you just said, you do sound quite antisemitic when it comes to Russia. But you would never come across as such simply because you live in America so the occasion of discussing Russia simply won't ever arise.



ruveyn
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18 Sep 2011, 10:32 am

Roman wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
There is one little conflict of interest I have noticed here. It's in the interest of Zionists that Russia do as badly as possible as this induces Russian Jews to go to Israel.


It is interesting that you are not saying "Jews trying to weaken and/or dominate America" or any other country for that matter; you apply it strictly to Russia. If what you say is true, could this be an explanation why Russians appear to be "more antisemitic" than Americans? If so, could it be that Americans are "just as much antisemitic as Russians are" in a sense that Americans would agree with the statement "Jews are trying to weaken RUSSIA", they just won't care since they don't live in Russia?

Take you, for example. Your user name doesn't sound Russian. So am I correct in assuming that you are American? If so, would you agree with the statement "Jews are trying to weaken/dominate America"? If not, then you are not antisemitic by American standards. But, at the same time, from what you just said, you do sound quite antisemitic when it comes to Russia. But you would never come across as such simply because you live in America so the occasion of discussing Russia simply won't ever arise

.


The last thing an American Jew would want is a weak American. America is the best thing that has happened to Jews in the last couple of thousand years.

ruveyn



Roman
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18 Sep 2011, 11:18 am

ruveyn wrote:
Roman wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
There is one little conflict of interest I have noticed here. It's in the interest of Zionists that Russia do as badly as possible as this induces Russian Jews to go to Israel.


It is interesting that you are not saying "Jews trying to weaken and/or dominate America" or any other country for that matter; you apply it strictly to Russia. If what you say is true, could this be an explanation why Russians appear to be "more antisemitic" than Americans? If so, could it be that Americans are "just as much antisemitic as Russians are" in a sense that Americans would agree with the statement "Jews are trying to weaken RUSSIA", they just won't care since they don't live in Russia?

Take you, for example. Your user name doesn't sound Russian. So am I correct in assuming that you are American? If so, would you agree with the statement "Jews are trying to weaken/dominate America"? If not, then you are not antisemitic by American standards. But, at the same time, from what you just said, you do sound quite antisemitic when it comes to Russia. But you would never come across as such simply because you live in America so the occasion of discussing Russia simply won't ever arise

.


The last thing an American Jew would want is a weak American. America is the best thing that has happened to Jews in the last couple of thousand years.

ruveyn


It is true that America is one of the best things that happened to the Jews. But there are two different ways of drawing an implication whether or not Jews are good for America:

1) Your point of view: Since America is good for the Jews, Jews are trying to be good for America

2) A point of view of "American antisemite": the reason America is good for the Jews is because Jews were successful in manipulating American government to their advantage. Now, doing the latter, implies that Jews are not necesserely good for America. In other words, they try to "weaken" America when it comes to America serving its own interests but, at the same time, they would "strengthen" it whenever it serves Jewish interests

Now I am not saying that I am agreeing or disagreeing with either of the two points of view above. I am simply trying to lay out the map of what the opinions are (after all, "mapping out opinions" is the purpose of this thread).

Now, it is typically assumed that anyone who agrees with "American" brand of antisemitism will be more likely to agree with Russian brand as well, and visa versa. But is this really the case? If we take what xenon said together with what you said, then it is possible to conclude that Jews sincerely wish the best for America (that is, we take the point of view of "item 1" above) and AT THE SAME TIME they want to weaken Russia (both because they want to encourage fellow Jews to leave Russia AND because they have some grudges against it). In this case, the conclusion would be "Russian antisemites are right, while American antisemites are wrong".

Now, if someone holds that point of view AND THAT PERSON HAPPENED TO BE AMERICAN, then he simply won't care about "Russian antisemites" being "right": he doesn't live in Russia so who cares if Russia gets weakened. So as far as he, American, is concerned, he is happy that Jews mean so well for America, hence he loves Jewish people. But at the same time, he completely agrees with Russian antisemites that Jews are trying to deliberately ruin Russia; but he doesn't hold it against the Jews since he simply doesn't care about Russians to begin with.

Likewise, if you take a Russian antisemite, it is completely possible that he will reject American antisemitism. Especially in the communist times, it was claimed that Jews want to "pay back" to Americans the favors that they received from them and, therefore, they are not loyal to soviet union. Now, viewing Jews as "agents of America" is NOT antisemitic from American point of view. If anything, in order for an American to be antisemitic, he has to say "Americans are tools of the Jews" which is DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSITE to Jews being "agents of America". But, at the same time, from the point of view of Russia this IS antisemitic. After all, it implies that Jews are betraying Russia. So who cares whether Jews betraying Russia while being "on top of America" or whether they do so while being "American's slaves". Either way, they betray Russia and that is all that matters for a Russian.

The bottom line: the point of view of Russian antisemite might be identical to the point of view of American Jew-lover. They both agree that Jews are good for America and bad for Russia. If you hold this point of view while living in America, you would love Jews for loving America. If you hold this point of view while living in Russia you will hate Jews for hating Russia. But the actual point of view is the same.



ruveyn
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18 Sep 2011, 11:43 am

Roman wrote:

It is true that America is one of the best things that happened to the Jews. But there are two different ways of drawing an implication whether or not Jews are good for America:


The Jewish contribution to science and medicine is bloody overwhelming. Without Jews, this country would be poorer and less healthy. Two Jews, Salk and Sabin vanquished polio. And that is just a small part of the contribution. Without Jews there would be no A-bomb and 1.5 million Americans would have died in the Pacific War that did not. Jews made the invasion of Japan unnecessary. Without Jews the average I.Q. of the U.S. would decrease by 10 points.

ruveyn



Roman
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18 Sep 2011, 3:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Roman wrote:

It is true that America is one of the best things that happened to the Jews. But there are two different ways of drawing an implication whether or not Jews are good for America:


The Jewish contribution to science and medicine is bloody overwhelming. Without Jews, this country would be poorer and less healthy. Two Jews, Salk and Sabin vanquished polio. And that is just a small part of the contribution. Without Jews there would be no A-bomb and 1.5 million Americans would have died in the Pacific War that did not. Jews made the invasion of Japan unnecessary. Without Jews the average I.Q. of the U.S. would decrease by 10 points.

ruveyn


I think we are talking about two different things. I never questioned Jewish intellect. In fact I know that a lot of leading physicists, including Einstein, Feynmann and so forth, were Jews. What I am talking about is whom are more loyal to: America or Israel? Even if they are more loyal to Israel, this won't stop their discoveries from helping America if they happened to live in America. So what you are saying is irrelevent.

Also, the more you point out how intelligent Jews are "in positive ways" (such as all the great discoveries that they are making), the more you ALSO imply how they can use their intelligence in negative ways as well (such as controlling the covernments). So what you are saying is not very effective in disproving modern antisemites since this is exactly what they are accusing Jews of. ON THE OTHR HAND, what you said CAN effectively disprove Hitler, since HE viewed Jews as "lower species" and therefore incapable of great discoveries.

This brings me to a very ineresting thought: most people assume that since Hitler is "ultimate antisemite", he would probably agree with everything any other antisemites would say. But from my point of view this might not be the case. After all, modern antisemites view Jews as "too powerful" whereas Hitler views them as "too stupid". These two things are diametrically opposite of each other; hence, modern antisemites and WW2-time Nazis can't possibly agree!

Either way, as far as I know, I can't think of any antisemites either in Russia or in USA who would agree with Hitler. As far as today is concerned, any accusations made against Jews is along the lines of combination of "too much power" and "questionable loyalty" which implies that their intellect (which everyone agrees is high) would be used by wrong means. That is why what you say won't disprove either Russian or American antisemites (although it WOULD disprove nazis).