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psych
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18 Sep 2006, 5:12 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gT8wopZJNQ (7 mins)

3min introduction, then some impressive testimonials from 13 year old boys. This is related to the David Lynch foundation - ive seen him talk about TM before and he seems to be a good western spokesman for it.

Ive meaning meaning to try TM or similar for years, but ill definately give it try now, and soon. What are your thoughts or experiences?



Fraya
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18 Sep 2006, 5:18 pm

I used to have trouble with ADHD.. taught myself meditation and after a few years of work I think my ability to concentrate is normal.. if not above normal (I tend to not notice when someone is talking or hear them come in if Im concentrating).

Its what I recommend but its not as easy as a prescription because it takes work and effort and its not something that can really be taught but something you have to train yourself for and figure out what works for you.. everyones mind works differently.


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hyperbolic
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18 Sep 2006, 6:39 pm

I try this, and yes I think it does work. The drawback is that it takes time, and for some reason doesn't help me fall to sleep.



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04 Oct 2006, 1:10 pm

I meditate nightly, anywhere between 20-50 minutes.. Sometimes multiple times a day.. It helps dramatically! I dont have ADHD but it'll help any mental issue



Fraya
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04 Oct 2006, 1:16 pm

In my opinion its something that should be taught in school.. definately more useful than knowing the names of the ships Columbus sailed on.


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04 Oct 2006, 1:31 pm

Fraya wrote:
In my opinion its something that should be taught in school.. definately more useful than knowing the names of the ships Columbus sailed on.


You have my absolute agreement!! Much like parents teaching a child to walk, I firmly believe that 'focus' and meditation should be taught in schools.. I took it up this year and am quite a natural at it.. My life has changed dramatically..

Who knows, training the mind can lead to evolution..



Callista
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04 Oct 2006, 9:12 pm

I do some of this, but it doesn't seem to help my concentration, probably because when I do meditate, it involves getting my mind to concentrate sharply on a scene or a concept... which I can only do if the scene or concept is complicated enough so that my mind can flit from piece to piece of it, like some sort of butterfly... If I try to narrow down the focus to anything less than a certain limit, my mind starts to wander. It's almost like a physical barrier.

Learning relaxation/meditation exercises has nearly eliminated my problems with anxiety, though--it worked a great deal better than any medication they ever put me on.

Quote:
Who knows, training the mind can lead to evolution..
I don't understand--why should mental training make us any more likely to pass on our DNA to the next generation? If anything, it seems to be that those with untrained minds and highly acute social senses are the most likely to reproduce...


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Fraya
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04 Oct 2006, 9:21 pm

Quote:
If I try to narrow down the focus to anything less than a certain limit, my mind starts to wander. It's almost like a physical barrier.


Thats the barrier you need to push against then you've found the limit of your current ability.

Try taking a scene that you use to meditate on and remove a single element at a time when your mind starts to wander put something back and hold it. Remember where you were with it and on your next attempt start there and begin removing things again.

The goal is to reduce the complexity to a single element and eventually remove that element as well but theres no rule that says you must get there overnight it wouldnt be very good training if it was that easy :P

Quote:
it seems to be that those with untrained minds and highly acute social senses are the most likely to reproduce


Among NTs thats true and their basic failing as a species.

However among us you can have one or the other not both.. without a trained mind you cannot train your social senses.


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TheMachine1
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04 Oct 2006, 9:37 pm

Yeah several years ago this scientist who was part of a TM movement ran for
president of the US. I saw his informercial adds. He was convinced that TM could
solve most the health care problems in the US. Reminds me of some nuts in the
random forum who think garlic is God(wait thats me).

At best I think TM would be less effective than brain wave biofeedback at treating ADHD.
And brain wave biofeedback has very little backing it up. I think its called neurofeedback.

As for as teating it in US school. Do you think the religious right would ever allow that?
No TM is associated with Eastern religions.

I will do some medline searches on TM and see what benfits it has. I know it has some but I'm not buying the anti-ADHD claims.



Fraya
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04 Oct 2006, 9:48 pm

Hey Im not claiming anything all Im saying is that it worked for me and apparently others as well as far as the science behind it or how it compares to neurobiofeedbackthingamajigger dont know dont care :P

But I think it would be more effective than biofeedback considering its not as unreliable as a machine reading externally detectable biological data and trying to tell what your thinking from it.

An oxidized terminal could have you making it worse :P

But thats a whole other can of worms.

As for the religious right yeah they would probably try to prevent it since they are usually too ignorant to realize it has nothing to do with religion (religious zealot pipes in "But everything has to do with religion" "Yeah whatever").


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TheMachine1
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04 Oct 2006, 9:59 pm

I was hoping you got more mad :)

Yeah I just want people to hear a desenting voice.

I did find 4 hits on medline for ADHD and meditation. But no studies on it. Its was
listed as an alternative therpy that is out there.

In theory with neurofeedback you put the electrical terminals on a front part of you
head/brian that gives you a closer veiw of the area known to effect focus. Oh something
like meditation would be a usefull thing to use when you had that EEG signal. To begin
learning to control focus. Typical treatment is 50 x 1 hour sessions. How often does one
meditate?



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04 Oct 2006, 11:42 pm

As often as you like.. its relaxing (when you arent trying too hard) so you could do it continuously for hours if you want.

Otherwise its up to you to set your own schedule but it seemed to work best for me doing it at least half an hour every other day or so.

And why would I get mad? Its a given that no self-respecting medical professional (self-rightious pretentious bastiches) would consider something that doesnt involve electronics, drugs or the requirement of their presence to be theraputic. If they did a study they would be considered a joke in their all-important social circle.


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05 Oct 2006, 1:44 pm

TheMachine1 wrote:
Yeah several years ago this scientist who was part of a TM movement ran for
president of the US. I saw his informercial adds. He was convinced that TM could
solve most the health care problems in the US. Reminds me of some nuts in the
random forum who think garlic is God(wait thats me).

As for as teating it in US school. Do you think the religious right would ever allow that?
No TM is associated with Eastern religions.


Whats up with Garlic? If you can convince me of something (I know its good) I'll up my intake 8).. I'm starting to get 'Green Tea' into my diet since its been constantly proving itself how great it is..

As for religion - Thats a whole bunch of ignorance on 'anyone who is associated with religions' part.. Meditation predates religion (I believe religion derived from the feeling of the universe one gets from a deeper meditation).. Jesus meditated (which would explain why people thought highly of him in respects to god).. Prayer is meditation.. So, if they did ban it, it was because people are stupid, simply put, and too ignorant to alter their views on something everyone should be doing..

Hmm.. Jesus meditated and Buddha meditated.. Buddha warned of people believing they are god (its a phase people may go through while meditating).. I dont think got the memo (I'm just assuming this stuff, but they did practice it)

A deep state of meditation is more beneficial then sleep and if you continually medidate, you may require less sleep.. I know my sleep is down to 7 hours, I used to love to get 8-9..



Callista
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05 Oct 2006, 3:20 pm

I don't think relaxation or meditation of any sort would work as a formal treatment for ADHD.

In order to gain any benefit from it, the desire and discipline has to come from YOU--you have to enjoy it, want to do it, see the point in it, to get anything out of it.

If the ADHD child, in school, were to be put into a meditation class, chances are they'd see it as yet another stupid school subject where you have to sit still. That sort of attitude is just going to result in a rebellious, antsy, annoyed kid. If you're going to teach meditation to a kid with ADHD, you'd have to do it out of school--taught by parents, therapist, or special ed person. There are just too many distractions in a classroom full of kids to make that sort of thing effective to someone who already has trouble concentrating.

I can see teaching kids how to meditate in health class--not TM, because you're right, that IS religious; but a relaxation/imagery technique of the sort that's used to control anxiety. It needn't be a daily or even weekly thing, because there's only so much time in a school day and we're already turning out kids who can't read despite their high school diplomas; but teaching the technique to kids once or twice a month seems like it might help. And naturally parents should be able to opt out of it; because some people are literally afraid that meditation will result in demon-possession... give those kids a trip to the school library instead; half an hour in a quiet environment can't hurt them even if they're reading, not meditating.


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06 Oct 2006, 1:08 pm

With meditation you gain focus which can be applied to every area of life.. A child having trouble concentrating is a prime candidate for such a technique and is of little to no excuse not to try it (in fact, they can reap a lot of benefit from it)..

Todays world relies so heavily on meditcations.. I used to suffer from heart burn daily for 3 years straight.. I blamed it on axiety since meditating rid of both.. Pills could only bandaid my problem, meditation rid of it



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06 Oct 2006, 7:39 pm

I don't deny it may be helpful for some, though it isn't helpful for me (that is, in the specific area of increasing concentration; it does help with anxiety and sleep). I just don't think that it's going to be very helpful if said ADHD child is learning it in a classroom with other children. Chances are, the humming lights, buzzing air conditioner, coughing, shifting of clothing, noises of the building... not to mention the presence of other people... is going to just about negate any benefit the child might get. A private teacher--or, better, a parent--would be more effective.

Meditation is good; but it's not a cure-all. ADHD is not a character defect; and it can only be partially overcome by the teaching of self-discipline and self-knowledge. For some, that might be enough; but for others, it will not be. Medication can be greatly helpful in being able to concentrate long enough to learn those coping skills necessary to deal with the creative, quick, scattered mind that comes with ADHD; sometimes, it can thereafter be discontinued; sometimes, not.

You see this with physical injury as well: If you have hurt one of your limbs, it may mend on its own; or you might need to exercise it to strengthen or stretch the muscles; or you might need the help of a physical therapist to learn how to do so. If the injury is severe enough, you might need a brace, cast, or even surgery. Chances are that, for the more severe injuries, you will need to take medicine to decrease pain and swelling--two things that do not help an injury to heal. There is no shame in needing these things; it just means that the problem was bad enough to need them. Denying that there are problems that are bad enough to need outside help is just denying yourself access to those resources--like hobbling around with torn ligaments in your knee, insisting to yourself that when you have strengthened your leg enough, you will no longer be in pain.


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