Who was Hitler before Hitler?
I just came across this and thought it was just perfect for PPR.
http://www.slate.com/articles/briefing/ ... _in_h.html
The Egyptian Pharaoh, of course.
ESPN dropped singer Hank Williams Jr. from its Monday Night Football telecast after he publicly compared President Obama to Adolf Hitler on Monday. Today, the Führer is universally recognized as the embodiment of evil and the most convenient example of a truly terrible human being. Before World War II, who was the rhetorical worst person in history?
The Pharoah. In the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries, many Americans and Europeans had a firmer grasp of the bible than of the history of genocidal dictators. Orators in search of a universal symbol for evil typically turned to figures like Judas Iscariot, Pontius Pilate, or, most frequently, the Pharaoh of Exodus, who chose to endure 10 plagues rather than let the Hebrew people go. In Common Sense, Thomas Paine wrote: “No man was a warmer wisher for reconciliation than myself, before the fatal nineteenth of April, 1775 [the date of the Lexington massacre], but the moment the event of that day was made known, I rejected the hardened, sullen tempered Pharaoh of England for ever.” In the run-up to the Civil War, abolitionists regularly referred to slaveholders as modern-day Pharaohs. Even after VE Day, Pharaoh continued to pop up in the speeches of social reformers like Martin Luther King Jr.
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Generally speaking, hatred was more local and short-lived before World War II. Nineteenth-century polemicists occasionally used Napoleon Bonaparte as shorthand for an evil ruler—they sometimes referred to “the little tyrant” rather than name the diminutive conqueror—but those references were rare. There is little record of oratorical comparisons of political leaders to Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, or Ivan the Terrible. Even Adolf Hitler himself once commented on history’s tendency to forget the sins of bloody dictators. In 1939, the Führer asked rhetorically, “Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?” (The authenticity of this quote is disputed.)
In the absence of a universal boogeyman, different regions latched on to a particular person as the personification of evil at different historical moments. Yet genocide and murder were less likely to earn a man universal revilement than treason or other forms of disloyalty. During the Civil War, for example, some Southerners spoke of Abraham Lincoln in vaguely Hitler-like terms. Upon Lincoln’s assassination, for example, the editor of the Texas Republican wrote, “the world is happily rid of a monster that disgraced the form of humanity.” (Some Confederates called Lincoln a “modern Pharaoh.”) Part of this scorn was based on their view of Lincoln as a traitor—both of his parents were Virginians, and Lincoln was born on slaveholding soil. Northerners, for their part, focused their ire on the traitorous assassin John Wilkes Booth. In fact, 52 years after Lincoln’s assassination, some Americans compared Woodrow Wilson to Booth, because he betrayed his country by leading the United States into war.
King George III was also a major whipping boy for American rhetoricians for decades after the Revolution. A good example is Walt Whitman’s “A Boston Ballad,” in which he argued that the Fugitive Slave Act, which required Northern States to return escaped slaves to their owners, represented a return of the ghost of King George.
Got a question about today’s news? Ask the Explainer.
Explainer thanks David Blight and Jay Winter of Yale University; Brandon Inabinet of Furman University; Stephen Kantrowitz of the University of Wisconsin-Madison; Michele Kennerly of Northeastern University; Ned O’Gorman of the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign; Christopher Swift of Texas A&M University; Dave Tell of the University of Kansas; and Michael Turner of Appalachian State University.
It makes me wonder just how long Hitler will last as the definition of evil, seeing as the last guy lasted milenia before being replaced in the popular mind. In retrospect there are aspects of Hitler and the Nazis that seem almost theatrically evil, like they knew this was the big one and if they were going to go down as evil, then they might as well play it to the hilt. After all, how often do you get to knock Biblical figures off the throne as baddest of all time?
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“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
Last edited by Dox47 on 09 Oct 2011, 12:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
I might be over simplifying things or making a historical mistake, but from my understanding a lot of regimes that previously ordered their military to commit genocides did so with an eye to killing regime opponents who happened to be concentrated in a given community. None of the previous regimes, to the best of my knowledge, were stupidly brutal enough to divert military resources to spiteful, hateful exterminations while opposing armies were on their front doorsteps! I think this brutal stupidity is what makes Hitler par excellent when it comes to epitomizing evilness.
Don't know much history about Catharism do we?
Then, "The Divine Comedy" is loaded (it's both mandatory and prohibited Canon), but it sounds as if you wish to remain well within the limits of what is usually called "Politically Correct". (There we notably meet Archbishop Ruggieri).
Ngrams give many "evil ruler" results, if you can extract the more recent, or from the desired time period. The age of Napoleon "created" most of today's concepts used inadvertently in thought. (I can't find that book with a fuzzy bonaparte, and I thought it was right beside "The Seduction of Unreason"). "Forbidden Knowledge: from Prometheus to pornography" by Roger Shattuck fills in somewhat, along with the lines of "The Banality of Evil" of the point.
Right or Left (?), "The Reign of Terror". Small Pox, Gulags, trail of tears, death marches, opium wars, .... Which perspective? For the "epitome of evil" boys or an deranged stomach (1882-1915), "To Bindle foremen were" or "Spring" (1916), Germany (1922), China (1933), Pain (Bentham again, 1933), Fascist movement (1938).
A list of "Most Evil Person" person's is in "Evil Unleashed: The First Bite of the Apple" William & William (2006), page 7, from a poll by the NYPost (1999), with 6 before the time.
Tadzio
Kraichgauer
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Both Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin have Hitler beat by tens of millions of deaths but you never hear as much about them.
Neither Mao or Stalin were defeated and their crimes revealed to the world, as Hitler had been. As their mass murders were revealed publicly sometime after they died and went to hell (with Mao, it had been decades till the world knew the full extent of the Cultural Revolution), it was just words spoken by someone on TV, or written in a magazine or book. There definitely was no emotional disconnect like that when the press captured footage of the horrors that had been going on inside the Nazi concentration camps after the Allies had liberated them.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I would tend to agree, I'm also not 100% sure but I certainly can't think of another regime that put it's genocide agenda ahead of it's own survival.
_________________
“The totally convinced and the totally stupid have too much in common for the resemblance to be accidental.”
-- Robert Anton Wilson
I would tend to agree, I'm also not 100% sure but I certainly can't think of another regime that put it's genocide agenda ahead of it's own survival.
+1 for the ideology makes you stupid thesis also know as the Hitler was a moron conjecture.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
Both Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin have Hitler beat by tens of millions of deaths but you never hear as much about them.
Neither Mao or Stalin were defeated and their crimes revealed to the world, as Hitler had been. As their mass murders were revealed publicly sometime after they died and went to hell (with Mao, it had been decades till the world knew the full extent of the Cultural Revolution), it was just words spoken by someone on TV, or written in a magazine or book. There definitely was no emotional disconnect like that when the press captured footage of the horrors that had been going on inside the Nazi concentration camps after the Allies had liberated them.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
The final score of Mao and Stalin each were higher than Hitler so that should stand by itself.
But then again media coverage is everything for most people. If they can't see pictures or video it didnt happen..
Whatever...........
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,794
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
Both Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin have Hitler beat by tens of millions of deaths but you never hear as much about them.
Neither Mao or Stalin were defeated and their crimes revealed to the world, as Hitler had been. As their mass murders were revealed publicly sometime after they died and went to hell (with Mao, it had been decades till the world knew the full extent of the Cultural Revolution), it was just words spoken by someone on TV, or written in a magazine or book. There definitely was no emotional disconnect like that when the press captured footage of the horrors that had been going on inside the Nazi concentration camps after the Allies had liberated them.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
The final score of Mao and Stalin each were higher than Hitler so that should stand by itself.
But then again media coverage is everything for most people. If they can't see pictures or video it didnt happen..
Whatever...........
Sadly enough, that's true.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Both Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin have Hitler beat by tens of millions of deaths but you never hear as much about them.
Neither Mao or Stalin were defeated and their crimes revealed to the world, as Hitler had been. As their mass murders were revealed publicly sometime after they died and went to hell (with Mao, it had been decades till the world knew the full extent of the Cultural Revolution), it was just words spoken by someone on TV, or written in a magazine or book. There definitely was no emotional disconnect like that when the press captured footage of the horrors that had been going on inside the Nazi concentration camps after the Allies had liberated them.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
The final score of Mao and Stalin each were higher than Hitler so that should stand by itself.
But then again media coverage is everything for most people. If they can't see pictures or video it didnt happen..
Whatever...........
Sadly enough, that's true.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Watch the movie To live by Zhang Yimou it give a great picture of era.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,794
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
Both Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin have Hitler beat by tens of millions of deaths but you never hear as much about them.
Neither Mao or Stalin were defeated and their crimes revealed to the world, as Hitler had been. As their mass murders were revealed publicly sometime after they died and went to hell (with Mao, it had been decades till the world knew the full extent of the Cultural Revolution), it was just words spoken by someone on TV, or written in a magazine or book. There definitely was no emotional disconnect like that when the press captured footage of the horrors that had been going on inside the Nazi concentration camps after the Allies had liberated them.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
The final score of Mao and Stalin each were higher than Hitler so that should stand by itself.
But then again media coverage is everything for most people. If they can't see pictures or video it didnt happen..
Whatever...........
Sadly enough, that's true.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Watch the movie To live by Zhang Yimou it give a great picture of era.
Thanks; I'll see if I can find it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
I would tend to agree, I'm also not 100% sure but I certainly can't think of another regime that put it's genocide agenda ahead of it's own survival.
The only guy who comes close is Stalin, who went after his martially competent political opponents in the military on the cusp of World War II. I don't think that was a predominantly ethnic genocide, though, and certainly wasn't done very late into the war, when pragmatic survival instincts generally take over.
Joker
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
Both Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin have Hitler beat by tens of millions of deaths but you never hear as much about them.
Neither Mao or Stalin were defeated and their crimes revealed to the world, as Hitler had been. As their mass murders were revealed publicly sometime after they died and went to hell (with Mao, it had been decades till the world knew the full extent of the Cultural Revolution), it was just words spoken by someone on TV, or written in a magazine or book. There definitely was no emotional disconnect like that when the press captured footage of the horrors that had been going on inside the Nazi concentration camps after the Allies had liberated them.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
The final score of Mao and Stalin each were higher than Hitler so that should stand by itself.
But then again media coverage is everything for most people. If they can't see pictures or video it didnt happen..
Whatever...........
Sadly enough, that's true.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Watch the movie To live by Zhang Yimou it give a great picture of era.
Thanks; I'll see if I can find it.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Everything Raptor said was correct Stalin and Mao put Hitler to shame on killing people it might not have been genocide but murder is murder no madder how it happended their just as evil As Hilter.
I would tend to agree, I'm also not 100% sure but I certainly can't think of another regime that put it's genocide agenda ahead of it's own survival.
The only guy who comes close is Stalin, who went after his martially competent political opponents in the military on the cusp of World War II. I don't think that was a predominantly ethnic genocide, though, and certainly wasn't done very late into the war, when pragmatic survival instincts generally take over.
I think we can all agree none of these men were pragmatic Liberals.
I think what they had in common is that they used the word "proved" in a social science context.
_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??
http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
I would tend to agree, I'm also not 100% sure but I certainly can't think of another regime that put it's genocide agenda ahead of it's own survival.
The only guy who comes close is Stalin, who went after his martially competent political opponents in the military on the cusp of World War II. I don't think that was a predominantly ethnic genocide, though, and certainly wasn't done very late into the war, when pragmatic survival instincts generally take over.
I think we can all agree none of these men were pragmatic Liberals.
I think what they had in common is that they used the word "proved" in a social science context.
True I was never a big fan of scoial science
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,794
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
I would tend to agree, I'm also not 100% sure but I certainly can't think of another regime that put it's genocide agenda ahead of it's own survival.
The only guy who comes close is Stalin, who went after his martially competent political opponents in the military on the cusp of World War II. I don't think that was a predominantly ethnic genocide, though, and certainly wasn't done very late into the war, when pragmatic survival instincts generally take over.
Actually, on documentary I saw (though I can't remember the name, unfortunately) maintained that during Stalin's purges and subsequent executions, such a large number of Jews were killed that it actually put Joe above Adolph as the greatest murderer of Jews. Apparently, there hadn't been any genocidal intent behind it, though it was doubtlessly Antisemitism gone wild. Chances are, Stalin was going to purge the Jews following the alleged "Doctors Plot." The Soviet Jews lucked out by that time, because Stalin soon died.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer