Page 3 of 4 [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

18 Oct 2011, 6:12 pm

Gedrene wrote:
Didn't you just explain the cosy relationship between the Republicans and seedy business oligarchs quite nicely there? I think so.


Your buddy Obama has made the same cozy accommodation. So don't lay it on just the republicans.

The needs of World War Two put FDR in bed with the industrialists where the fell panting and huffing on each other's bosoms.

The relation between business and government has become entirely too cozy and it has happened under administrations of both the major parties.

ruveyn



mikecartwright
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 398

18 Oct 2011, 8:13 pm

I agree with the political cartoon.



Master_Pedant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,903

18 Oct 2011, 9:18 pm

ruveyn wrote:
visagrunt wrote:

There is a difference between laws and regulations that have the effect of making society function more effectively and "regulating every last detail of your life." If the rhetoric were less absolute, I think we would find a great deal of common ground.


Libertarians are not anarchists. They are minarchists. They want the government to be capable of assuring public health and safety, to be capable of protecting the lives and property of its citizens from wrongful aggression. That is why we have governments in the first place.


Uh, no. Some (property rights) libertarians are minarchist, others actually are anarchists (of the anarcho-capitalist flavour).


_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/


Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

18 Oct 2011, 9:19 pm

mikecartwright wrote:
I agree with the political cartoon.


I do to



Master_Pedant
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Mar 2009
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,903

18 Oct 2011, 9:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:

I do enjoy classical liberalism, thought it is better then American Liberalism, which is like a off brand soda its not as good as the original :lol:


Classical Liberalism of the non-statist variety is version 1.0 of the modern libertarian position. Classical Liberalism is the origin of the libertarian stand of today.

ruveyn


Classical liberalism, even in the varieties that praised the market, always referenced the public interest and public welfare with regard to state policy. Property rights libertarians have a much more feudal conception of government, where private contracts reign supreme.


_________________
http://www.voterocky.org/


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

18 Oct 2011, 10:08 pm

..... Ok, there is nothing to really comment on here.

I mean, M_P is right on the issue of ruveyn's definition of libertarianism. Part of that is just seen with the libertarian movement actually having anarchists as easily identified as reflecting the same broad ideology. For instance, Murray Rothbard is a hero in many segments of libertarianism, but he's also famous as the father of anarcho-capitalism. In fact, often MANY people exist in both communities and often the finding is that these communities communicate with such ease that... anarcho-capitalism is best understood as an extreme brand of libertarianism.

Beyond that.... I don't see the point, especially given that libertarianism isn't this clearly defined position, but rather actually is an ideology like other ideologies. It's narrower, but deontological ethics are not necessary for the notion to exist(many libertarians were proclaimed utilitarians or other notions), nor does the position commit a person to as much as strictly as one may think. This can be stated with some confidence, if only because at least one libertarian figure or another has admitted to some variation. http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertari ... tions.html

I don't see what else to comment on here. Maybe some libertarians, or the libertarian party have very questionable ideas, but... if we try to understand the notion as being broadly taken as an ideology, then it becomes more comprehensible, even if some absurdities are found. (And even then, it must be noted that in political ideas, there are enough absurdities to drive anybody mad)



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Oct 2011, 10:18 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Uh, no. Some (property rights) libertarians are minarchist, others actually are anarchists (of the anarcho-capitalist flavour).


I know classical liberals who support the idea of the NHS if not necessarily its implementation. It's a broad spectrum and is not always about an extremely small state, but rather a small state that does things better.



Tadzio
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2009
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 877

18 Oct 2011, 10:27 pm

Joker wrote:
Image


My Grandpa just told me that a Libertarian is someone who
expects you to pay him for you letting him use your outhouse.

Tadzio



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Oct 2011, 10:36 pm

Tadzio wrote:
My Grandpa just told me that a Libertarian is someone who
expects you to pay him for you letting him use your outhouse.


Not 'expects' (most people wouldn't charge out of a sense of common decency) but is he entitled to? Sure.



Tadzio
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Sep 2009
Age: 68
Gender: Male
Posts: 877

18 Oct 2011, 10:49 pm

Tequila wrote:
Tadzio wrote:
My Grandpa just told me that a Libertarian is someone who
expects you to pay him for you letting him use your outhouse.


Not 'expects' (most people wouldn't charge out of a sense of common decency) but is he entitled to? Sure.


I wouldn't pay a Libertarian for his expelling his fecal material in my outhouse, even if he might be in the ranks of an "Elvis Presley" or an "Abba" member.

If he tried to bill Public Works for his deposit in a public place, indeed, he would probably get less than a zero payment.

Tadzio



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Oct 2011, 10:54 pm

(facepalm)

I completely misinterpreted your post.

No, a libertarian wouldn't expect you to pay him for him using your loo. Your grandfather is being silly.

What I meant was that under a libertarian society, people could (and still can, even without one) charge for others to use their loo. But most people wouldn't.



Joker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)

21 Oct 2011, 10:16 pm

Often anarchists and libertarians agree on the same issues.



VIDEODROME
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,691

22 Oct 2011, 12:11 am

A capitalist lets you use their restroom for free.


But then they would charge you for the toilet paper.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

22 Oct 2011, 3:18 am

VIDEODROME wrote:
A capitalist lets you use their restroom for free.


But then they would charge you for the toilet paper.


The bring your own toilet paper. In a socialist system, bring The People's Toilet Paper.

ruveyn



Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,157
Location: Omnipresent

23 Oct 2011, 1:00 am

VIDEODROME wrote:
A capitalist lets you use their restroom for free.


But then they would charge you for the toilet paper.

Possibly not. A major issue is marketing. It is good to appear generous on issues where generosity is trivial to use that impression to make people feel comfortable making purchases. So, businesses will probably still offer free toilet paper, and various other places will probably have other free offers as well, mostly for the purposes of improving human comfort and through that promoting sales.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

23 Oct 2011, 7:15 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
VIDEODROME wrote:
A capitalist lets you use their restroom for free.


But then they would charge you for the toilet paper.

Possibly not. A major issue is marketing. It is good to appear generous on issues where generosity is trivial to use that impression to make people feel comfortable making purchases. So, businesses will probably still offer free toilet paper, and various other places will probably have other free offers as well, mostly for the purposes of improving human comfort and through that promoting sales.


A loss leader. Always a good marketing tactic.

ruveyn