Grand Unified Theory of Autism-Social and language problems

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To add: Like most people, I though cannot experience this as they do. They pick up on each other in an instant of time in their relations, it is as if they knew each other for a lifetime.......this has always been uncanny to me, hence why I still think there may be something off a bit in the ToM department---though maybe it is intrinsic to plain old introversion....could be.

What do you mean by "it is fundamental?"

I'm not suggesting narcissism based on this thread alone.

That ToM is central to "autism." This is the theme of the opening salvo: That the us & them "distinction" is altered instinctively.

What I said: "your unified theory is a workable model, though imperfect ( but it does follow a corresponding line, just look at the Sally-Anne test), and is the essence of the dynamic, at least in principle. Those individual "parts" of it that are outline lined could be connected, or are symptomatic of ToM issues, though autism encompasses more."

Thoughts?

Well, Simon Baron-Cohen, who made the claim that theory of mind deficits are the central deficit in autism based his conclusions drawn from research which found that 80% of the autistic children tested even showed measurable deficits.

I am extremely dubious as to whether ToM is central to autism. I think it is a very common trait, but not particularly more common than sensory processing issues, for example.

This doesn't mean that social impairments wouldn't be present, but I am also dubious as to whether all social impairments relate to theory of mind.

Well, the question isn't a matter of "all social impairments" but, rather, the fundamental social impairments for a majority of those with significant social problems. As far as the other things affecting social impairments, I mean, yes, aspies can sound annoying and "odd", but people who sound "annoying" or "odd" can also say socially 'appropriate' things that allows for their inclusion into social groups (I'm aware of a few, personally).

Ultimately, this hypothesis potentially explains a significant subset of autism but not everybody as "Autism" is a spectrum with variance in associated "autistic deficits" from individual to individual. You might have a great ToM, but have sensory processing issues, while the common aspie male has a poor ToM but lacks sensory processing issues or has them to a much less degree.

I've been trying to read the rest of the thread but couldn't. I was too bothered by this post. I don't find any hints of NPD in the OP, and believe me when I say this, I've married one. No narcissist is going to reflect on himself, especially not long enough to find any flaws in himself, and/or try to find what is wrong with himself.
The way the OP gracefully accepts criticism , the total absence of camouflaged rage/mockery is also a good hint.
Don't stir people in the direction of questionning whether or not they are sociopaths, once an autistic person starts researching something like this, they run the risk of adopting the culture. And it's a bad one.

This thread is just part of a pattern. Maybe it isn't narcissism, but there are recurring themes and attitudes in swbluto's posts that never seem to progress towards some from of resolution. Endless ruminations are not useful. I can't help but wonder if the posts themselves are what are important to him. The content isn't the issue, it's the long threads with multiple responders. This is narcissistic, even if the theme is one of self reflection.

Genuine self reflection leads somewhere.

So maybe it isn't narcissism. But I can't escape the feeling that there is something more than perseveration on autism going on here.

Autism is a tough thing. It requires work to overcome it, even if only partially. I don't see any work. I only see endless discussion.

I don't even know where to start but I disagree entirely in respect to my ASD.

That description in the opening post is pretty much the opposite of my condition. Or perhaps, it is simply a strange interpretation of the same collection of traits.

Alright I realize I haven't read enough threads by the OP to form an opinion of him, and your judgement is probably more valid than mine, since I know less. There indeed doesn't seem to be any kind of progress made but I haven't been back on WP for long enough to know how long this has been going on.

Perseveration can include not going anywhere. I can't say I fully understand what it all perseveration means though. And I am not saying this is what the OP is doing or not. I have no idea.

I find it difficult to conceive of an autistic child without significant deficits in NT ToM. Perhaps this child has sensory processing issues that result in certain autistic behaviors (what and what are these?), but is this child autistic if they have a normal level of NT ToM, as measured on both tests (who knows what these are measuring?), and as judged by others based on social behaviors in the wild?

At the other extreme, I find it easy to conceive of an autistic child lacking NT ToM completely and completely ignoring people into late childhood, teenage years, adulthood, forever.

Obviously, I am biased by my own experience. I find it very difficult to apply NT ToM on purpose as an adult, so I find it very difficult to think of a child naturally doing so at age 6 or 10 or 14 and still being autistic.

Verdandi :
The acid ToM test: Show me a spectumite that can read or intuit the non-verbal and you have an autistic individual with "ToM." Can one intuit body language and be on the spectrum? Yes? No? Without the understanding of this language you have little reinforcement in the effectiveness in communication--my sense tells me it is literaly a shot in the dark without this.

This non-verbal language is "fundamental" in ToM. There may be some that do not Sally Anne it, as there are cases of young 5 year olds on the spectrum that work this test out. But is this at the same NT level in quality and time?

Without the reinforcement of these 'checks' in body language, you are left with 'imagination' to work out a unique system in understanding the other mind. You might get a "Great Theory of Mind" here via imagination, but it is constructed atypically.

Someone who can read intonation well, likely will lead to a higher ToM. I'm aware of at least one of the diagnosed that understant this feature.

ToM impairment is central in Autism.

Last edited by Mdyar on 29 Oct 2011, 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's not impossible for autistic people to have some degree of inclusion into certain social groups - usually related to special interests, yes, but it does happen.



I haven't said anything about my own theory of mind - I already know it's rubbish.

Could you cite that "common Aspie male" lacking sensory processing issue? SPD is practically universal in autistic disorders.



Not being able to read body language is not the same thing as lacking theory of mind, I suspect. That is, I do not think one necessarily implies the other.



No, I don't think so. It's certainly common and I wouldn't argue otherwise, but going from there to "central" is not a logical leap.

Here's a more scholarly explanation of what I've been trying to say:

http://psych.wisc.edu/lang/pdf/Gernsbac ... odules.pdf

Are you suggesting that spoken language is all that is required for ToM?

I don't think that ToM depends entirely on processing of non-verbal cues in person. What about reading between the lines in writing?

Autistics just don't think in terms of social hierarchies in person or in written communications, unless social hierarchy is the specific topic being discussed. Any autistic person who has somehow picked this up by adulthood should try to remember if they did so at an age-matched level in childhood.