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Where do you stand on the issue?
pro-cure, I'm on the spectrum 14%  14%  [ 9 ]
anti-cure, I'm on the spectrum 61%  61%  [ 39 ]
pro-cure, I'm an NT parent of an ASD child 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
anti-cure, I'm a NT parent of an ASD child 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
other 23%  23%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 64

Gedrene
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21 Nov 2011, 5:50 am

Oodain wrote:
yet my motor skills are not impaired enough not to be able to snowboard a glacier, in reality does the theoretical differences really matter that much?

i experience small involuntary lockups when overwhelmed and i have a tendency to lose ballance when a sharp balance change is in order where my brother does not (then again he teaches surfing, snowboarded as long as me and competes on a national level(surfing))

then again i dont know if its fine motor control or not, i have a lot harder time at writing than i would like with frequent mistypes (usually wrongly hit keys or wrong muscle sequencing, typing the letters in another order than i intended)
Aye aye. Well any person can have multiple keyboard mistypes. One only needs to take a quick look at youtube. And quite a few people's handwriting isn't that good. people only focus in on it for aspies because they have other issues. That and I am not so stuffed about typos as others I think.



Gedrene
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21 Nov 2011, 6:31 am

Your last comment is a complete mess but I'll try and salvage it for what it's worth.


One can see this in practice with regards to the ICD-10 when one looks on this website when it says:

Quote:
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual (although not a necessary diagnostic feature).

http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/about_as ... s_syndrome

And lo and behold I said that motor issues were not a necessary feature of asperger's.

aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.
For starters you are simply trying to crowd together autism and aspergers once again, even though the fact is that I was always talking about asperger's and autism seperately. Your attempt to mix up the whole thing is a failure, and a see-through attempt at misrepresenting what I say.

aghogday wrote:
This is my argument that it is clear that motor skills problems are a clinical feature/diagnostic criteria usually seen in Aspergers not a co-morbid condition in Aspergers. Hans Aspergers identified it first in 1944
D'oh this is cheap aghogday. The fact is that asperger's syndrome was made long after asperger died. He, for all I know, may have been talking about people who were not simply those with what we call asperger's syndrome but autism too where actual motor skill deficits are more often a part of the issue, and not simply clumsiness.

aghogday wrote:
There is no definition of "deficit" that suggests that a person with a deficit is incapable of normal functioning or is incapable of being as good as someone else. Some people do overcome deficits in functioning.
i wasn't arguing about this at all. I was mocking the tautological argument that a deficit is a deficit. It was also not necessary.

Gedrene wrote:
I am sorry but deficit means incapable to be as good as someone else
Reading that one can see deficit as meaning someone is not as good because of some deficiency and unable to match up because of that deficiency. People can improve beyond their ability to improve. And that is not something equal to motor clumsiness.



aghogday
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21 Nov 2011, 1:50 pm

Gedrene wrote:
Your last comment is a complete mess but I'll try and salvage it for what it's worth.


One can see this in practice with regards to the ICD-10 when one looks on this website when it says:
Quote:
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual (although not a necessary diagnostic feature).

http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/about_as ... s_syndrome

And lo and behold I said that motor issues were not a necessary feature of asperger's.

Aghogday Wrote:
Quote:
I already made this clear in the first post I made about the ICD10 that it wasn't a necessary diagnostic feature, it still though is a usual diagnostic feature clearly listed among all the other diagnostic features in the ICD criteria of diagnostic features for Aspergers. If it were a necessary diagnostic feature it would mean that those individuals that did not have this diagnostic feature would not receive a diagnosis of Aspergers. They state that the diagnostic criteria of motor clumsiness is usually seen in Aspergers, not seen in all cases.


aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.
For starters you are simply trying to crowd together autism and aspergers once again, even though the fact is that I was always talking about asperger's and autism seperately. Your attempt to mix up the whole thing is a failure, and a see-through attempt at misrepresenting what I say.

Aghogday wrote:
Quote:
My statement is factual and backed up with evidence. You suggested that Motor Skill problems were not a clinical feature of Aspergers, and suggested it was a co-mobid that was part of low functioning autism, as referenced by your quote in the previous post. It is not a co-morbid condition associated with any type of autism, it is a clinical feature seen in Aspergers and Autism Disorder. It is a clinical feature of the disorders not a co-morbid condition associated with the disorders. And, furthermore it part of the diagnostic criteria listed in the ICD10 and Gilsberg criteria for Aspergers, per the references I have provided


aghogday wrote:
This is my argument that it is clear that motor skills problems are a clinical feature/diagnostic criteria usually seen in Aspergers not a co-morbid condition in Aspergers. Hans Aspergers identified it first in 1944
D'oh this is cheap aghogday. The fact is that asperger's syndrome was made long after asperger died. He, for all I know, may have been talking about people who were not simply those with what we call asperger's syndrome but autism too where actual motor skill deficits are more often a part of the issue, and not simply clumsiness.

Aghogday Wrote:
I clearly stated in my last post that he made these observations 50 years before the diagnosis appeared, however his research was the source of information that led to the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, and his observations about motor skills problems have been confirmed by scientific research, and as already stated are clearly listed as clinical features in Aspergers, and part of the diagnostic criteria of the ICD10 and Gilsberg Criteria for Aspergers.
Quote:

aghogday wrote:
There is no definition of "deficit" that suggests that a person with a deficit is incapable of normal functioning or is incapable of being as good as someone else. Some people do overcome deficits in functioning.
i wasn't arguing about this at all. I was mocking the tautological argument that a deficit is a deficit. It was also not necessary.

Gedrene wrote:
I am sorry but deficit means incapable to be as good as someone else
Reading that one can see deficit as meaning someone is not as good because of some deficiency and unable to match up because of that deficiency. People can improve beyond their ability to improve. And that is not something equal to motor clumsiness.


I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning. It makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal. Most people with aspergers don't fully overcome it, it is why it is considered a clinical feature usually seen in Aspergers.

Not being able to write neatly because of fine motor skills problems or not being able to overcome clumsiness because of motor skills problems, are both impairment/deficits that are clinical features in Aspergers that vary among individuals.

Some have no impairments/deficits in these motor skills abilities and some have significant impariments/deficits in these motor skills abilities, however it has been identified through scientific research as a clinical feature of Aspergers that is usually seen in the condition.



Gedrene
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22 Nov 2011, 5:00 pm

aghogday wrote:
I clearly stated in my last post that he made these observations 50 years before the diagnosis appeared, however his research was the source of information that led to the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, and his observations about motor skills problems have been confirmed by scientific research, and as already stated are clearly listed as clinical features in Aspergers, and part of the diagnostic criteria of the ICD10 and Gilsberg Criteria for Aspergers.
And I am saying that this isn't true and have said so already. My argument refutes this one. Other arguments have had a part in refuting it too. Clumisiness isn't deficiency and whilst we can claim that asperger was the namesake of apserger's syndrome I think he would have dealt with autistics who were not higher functioning as well.

The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?

Aghogday wrote:
I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning
And I never disagreed with that idea.

aghogday wrote:
makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal.
yes, but the fact is that a deficiency means they can only improve so much vis a vis other people. Otherwise we would call it lack of development of underdeveloped motor skills when we talk about autistic motor skills not being as good. Then again I believe this is the case more often.

I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.



aghogday
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23 Nov 2011, 1:30 am

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
I clearly stated in my last post that he made these observations 50 years before the diagnosis appeared, however his research was the source of information that led to the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, and his observations about motor skills problems have been confirmed by scientific research, and as already stated are clearly listed as clinical features in Aspergers, and part of the diagnostic criteria of the ICD10 and Gilsberg Criteria for Aspergers.
And I am saying that this isn't true and have said so already. My argument refutes this one. Other arguments have had a part in refuting it too. Clumisiness isn't deficiency and whilst we can claim that asperger was the namesake of apserger's syndrome I think he would have dealt with autistics who were not higher functioning as well.

The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?

Aghogday wrote:
I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning
And I never disagreed with that idea.

aghogday wrote:
makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal.
yes, but the fact is that a deficiency means they can only improve so much vis a vis other people. Otherwise we would call it lack of development of underdeveloped motor skills when we talk about autistic motor skills not being as good. Then again I believe this is the case more often.

I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.


I provided evidence that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of autism.

You provided an opinion of what you thought a definition of deficit was, I clarified it by presented a source, that clearly indicates that deficit means an impairment in functioning.

We are arguing semantics here. Issues, deficits, impairments are all words used to describe problems in physical functioning. Clumsiness is a physical manisfestation of an impairment in motor coordination in many individuals with Aspegers; it's a fairly minor impairment in physical functioning considering the grande scheme of life, but from a Medical perspective that is what it is.

It's an observable physiological Motor skills problem that has been researched and noted in 50 to 90 percent of individuals with Aspergers, and considered a clinical feature. And medical research provides evidence that the cerebellum, the part of the brain that controls this, is different in some individuals that have aspergers.

Hopefully this information from Wiki will provide a clearer understanding, of the relationship of clumsiness and motor coordination skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skills_disorder

Quote:
Motor skills disorder (also known as motor coordination disorder or motor dyspraxia) is a human developmental disorder that impairs motor coordination in daily activities. It is neurological in origin. Many children with autism[citation needed] or Asperger syndrome experience deficits in motor skills development, which often manifests as abnormal clumsiness, but is not major enough to be considered a disorder in and of itself.

The disorder has its basis in the brain, a network of neural connections that allow humans to process the information received. Motor Dyspraxia is a result of weak or disorganised connections in the brain, which then translates to trouble with motor coordination. Movements are performed because the brain sends messages to the area requiring action. The dyspraxia is a result of weak or poorly structured neural pathways to the moving parts of the body.

Clumsiness and tendency to fall down are a matter of poor balance and gross motor coordination. The origin of all of these difficulties is the vestibular system of the inner ear. The vestibule is an organ responsible for maintaining balance and coordination and is located beside the cochlea, which acts as a sound receptor. Although they attend to different information, the proximity of the vestibule and cochlea allows them to complement each other. The other consequence of their relationship is that if one system is not functioning well, the other is concurrently affected.


Aspergers isn't a disease, it is a neurological disorder, that some accommodate to very well in their lives and some struggle with. It's neither all good or all bad. But, I see no use in denying the reality of the clinical features associated with the condition that are clearly identified as impairments in some with the condition.

I accept the fact that you don't agree with the commonly accepted research on this issue, or my opinion that is based on that research. I appreciate the apology for saying people are lying; all the personal stuff has no place in a civil discussion. Not everyone is going to ignore it as much as I have.



Gedrene
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23 Nov 2011, 6:23 am

aghogday wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
I clearly stated in my last post that he made these observations 50 years before the diagnosis appeared, however his research was the source of information that led to the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, and his observations about motor skills problems have been confirmed by scientific research, and as already stated are clearly listed as clinical features in Aspergers, and part of the diagnostic criteria of the ICD10 and Gilsberg Criteria for Aspergers.
And I am saying that this isn't true and have said so already. My argument refutes this one. Other arguments have had a part in refuting it too. Clumisiness isn't deficiency and whilst we can claim that asperger was the namesake of apserger's syndrome I think he would have dealt with autistics who were not higher functioning as well.

The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?

Aghogday wrote:
I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning
And I never disagreed with that idea.

aghogday wrote:
makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal.
yes, but the fact is that a deficiency means they can only improve so much vis a vis other people. Otherwise we would call it lack of development of underdeveloped motor skills when we talk about autistic motor skills not being as good. Then again I believe this is the case more often.

I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.


I provided evidence that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of autism.

You provided an opinion of what you thought a definition of deficit was, I clarified it by presented a source, that clearly indicates that deficit means an impairment in functioning.

We are arguing semantics here. Issues, deficits, impairments are all words used to describe problems in physical functioning. Clumsiness is a physical manisfestation of an impairment in motor coordination in many individuals with Aspegers; it's a fairly minor impairment in physical functioning considering the grande scheme of life, but from a Medical perspective that is what it is.

It's an observable physiological Motor skills problem that has been researched and noted in 50 to 90 percent of individuals with Aspergers, and considered a clinical feature. And medical research provides evidence that the cerebellum, the part of the brain that controls this, is different in some individuals that have aspergers.

Hopefully this information from Wiki will provide a clearer understanding, of the relationship of clumsiness and motor coordination skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skills_disorder

Quote:
Motor skills disorder (also known as motor coordination disorder or motor dyspraxia) is a human developmental disorder that impairs motor coordination in daily activities. It is neurological in origin. Many children with autism[citation needed] or Asperger syndrome experience deficits in motor skills development, which often manifests as abnormal clumsiness, but is not major enough to be considered a disorder in and of itself.

The disorder has its basis in the brain, a network of neural connections that allow humans to process the information received. Motor Dyspraxia is a result of weak or disorganised connections in the brain, which then translates to trouble with motor coordination. Movements are performed because the brain sends messages to the area requiring action. The dyspraxia is a result of weak or poorly structured neural pathways to the moving parts of the body.

Clumsiness and tendency to fall down are a matter of poor balance and gross motor coordination. The origin of all of these difficulties is the vestibular system of the inner ear. The vestibule is an organ responsible for maintaining balance and coordination and is located beside the cochlea, which acts as a sound receptor. Although they attend to different information, the proximity of the vestibule and cochlea allows them to complement each other. The other consequence of their relationship is that if one system is not functioning well, the other is concurrently affected.


Aspergers isn't a disease, it is a neurological disorder, that some accommodate to very well in their lives and some struggle with. It's neither all good or all bad. But, I see no use in denying the reality of the clinical features associated with the condition that are clearly identified as impairments in some with the condition.

I accept the fact that you don't agree with the commonly accepted research on this issue, or my opinion that is based on that research. I appreciate the apology for saying people are lying; all the personal stuff has no place in a civil discussion. Not everyone is going to ignore it as much as I have.


I disagree and I have believed that I have said why, but I said I would not argue any more. So I'll be quiet. I said lie instead of untruth. It's nothing like a mad tract though.



Benjamin the Donkey
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07 Mar 2017, 8:49 am

nostromo wrote:
[random]
Has anyone read the Moomintroll books?
It just occured to me that the diagnostic criteria aghogday listed above for Aspergers describe the Hemulen. 8O
[/random]


It suddenly occurred to me as I was reading the third book to my kids. I found your post when I went to Google to see if anyone else had made this connection.


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ASPartOfMe
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07 Mar 2017, 1:47 pm

Since the thread was started in 2011 I hope the OP's executive functioning is not so bad that she has yet to complete the assignment.


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