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Where do you stand on the issue?
pro-cure, I'm on the spectrum 14%  14%  [ 9 ]
anti-cure, I'm on the spectrum 61%  61%  [ 39 ]
pro-cure, I'm an NT parent of an ASD child 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
anti-cure, I'm a NT parent of an ASD child 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
other 23%  23%  [ 15 ]
Total votes : 64

Gedrene
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20 Nov 2011, 4:47 am

vermontsavant wrote:
aghogday is right about fine motor delay
I never said fine motor delay wasn't a problem for autistics. I said that it isn't called kinesthetic intelligence because that's a made-up load of rubbish.



Last edited by Gedrene on 20 Nov 2011, 5:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Gedrene
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20 Nov 2011, 5:12 am

aghogday wrote:
You already asserted in another post that motor skills among the other features that I listed as clinical features of aspergers from a third part resource, could only be co-morbids associated with low functioning autism.
Misrepresentation of what I said. What I say is that autism is a junk taxon of various different issues all lumped together, and whilst motor skills are a problem for autistics the fact is that they are not similar to me in this way.

My motor skills were remedied in the same way most children improve their motor skills, through effort. It therefore was no medical issue.

Gedrene wrote:
My own element has always been with other people with this asperger's diagnosis, most of which do not have fine motor skill issues
Fantastic. You misread what I said. I said most and aspergers. That doesn't mean all and It doesn't mean all kinds of autistics.

aghogday wrote:
I'm not suggesting that most educationalists in the Education system uses the theory of multiple intelligences, but the article you referenced clearly states that many educationalists support the theory and use it in a practical manner.
A lie. it is not used widely by educationalists anywhere. Many isn't one institution in Boston. And as for the many part:

Gedrene wrote:
No. For starters the concept is not practice in any major part of the american education system. It was completely ignorred in the no child left behind programme.

And then I give explanations why the seven intelligences idea is bumpkis which is what really matters.

aghogday wrote:
That's what we've been disagreeing on, you suggested it could only be a co-morbid in low functioning autism.
Well the fact is that it is a comorbidity and moreover something that can be improved to naught in aspies. Most people with aspergers only have communication and social deficits etc etc. Deficient motor skills is a sign of lower functioning, but of course they may very well be called aspies. It's interesting that you don't use the DSM IV characteristics.

The only motor involed thing on the DSM IV is stereotypy, stimming. That is not reduced motor skills. That's unusual behaviour.

aghogday wrote:
I've already provided evidence from the ICD10 that defines motor skills issues as a characteristic of Aspergers in their definition of the condition.
issues doesn't mean deficiency. Also what issues exactly? Deficiency means incapability.

aghogday wrote:
The only proof you have provided that motor skill problems are not a clinical feature of autism/aspergers,
it's clear that you have tried to confuse things from the start by amalgamating autism and aspergers as if no spectrum ever existed and as if some people didn't have lower functioning issues whereas I only said that motor deficiency are not part of the asperger's diagnosis which they are not. Stimming is not a deficiency. it is unusual behaviour. Some may do, but they are co-morbid.



aghogday
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20 Nov 2011, 3:23 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
You already asserted in another post that motor skills among the other features that I listed as clinical features of aspergers from a third part resource, could only be co-morbids associated with low functioning autism.
Misrepresentation of what I said. What I say is that autism is a junk taxon of various different issues all lumped together, and whilst motor skills are a problem for autistics the fact is that they are not similar to me in this way.

My motor skills were remedied in the same way most children improve their motor skills, through effort. It therefore was no medical issue.

Gedrene wrote:
My own element has always been with other people with this asperger's diagnosis, most of which do not have fine motor skill issues
Fantastic. You misread what I said. I said most and aspergers. That doesn't mean all and It doesn't mean all kinds of autistics.

aghogday wrote:
I'm not suggesting that most educationalists in the Education system uses the theory of multiple intelligences, but the article you referenced clearly states that many educationalists support the theory and use it in a practical manner.
A lie. it is not used widely by educationalists anywhere. Many isn't one institution in Boston. And as for the many part:

Gedrene wrote:
No. For starters the concept is not practice in any major part of the american education system. It was completely ignorred in the no child left behind programme.

And then I give explanations why the seven intelligences idea is bumpkis which is what really matters.

aghogday wrote:
That's what we've been disagreeing on, you suggested it could only be a co-morbid in low functioning autism.
Well the fact is that it is a comorbidity and moreover something that can be improved to naught in aspies. Most people with aspergers only have communication and social deficits etc etc. Deficient motor skills is a sign of lower functioning, but of course they may very well be called aspies. It's interesting that you don't use the DSM IV characteristics.

The only motor involed thing on the DSM IV is stereotypy, stimming. That is not reduced motor skills. That's unusual behaviour.

aghogday wrote:
I've already provided evidence from the ICD10 that defines motor skills issues as a characteristic of Aspergers in their definition of the condition.
issues doesn't mean deficiency. Also what issues exactly? Deficiency means incapability.

aghogday wrote:
The only proof you have provided that motor skill problems are not a clinical feature of autism/aspergers,
it's clear that you have tried to confuse things from the start by amalgamating autism and aspergers as if no spectrum ever existed and as if some people didn't have lower functioning issues whereas I only said that motor deficiency are not part of the asperger's diagnosis which they are not. Stimming is not a deficiency. it is unusual behaviour. Some may do, but they are co-morbid.


Motor clumsiness, is actually what is in the ICD10 and the Gilberg diagnositic criteria for Aspergers commonly used in the UK where you live. There is no source that lists motor skills clumsiness, problems, deficits, issues or whatever synomym one may choose to use for motor skills problems that are a feature/diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, as a co-morbid condition, it is either listed as a feature, or part of the diagnostic criteria in two widely used criteria used to diagnose Aspergers.

Deficits can be from mild to severe, there is no definition of deficit or deficiency that states it means incapability.


http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/7/4/310.full

Quote:
Gillberg's (1991) diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome
Social impairments

Narrow interests

Repetitive routines

Speech and language peculiarities

Non-verbal communication problems

Motor clumsiness


I've provided three third party sources now that list motor skills problems as either a diagnostic criteria or clinical feature of Aspergers, Lord from 1995, ICD10, and Gilberg Diagnostic Criteria. Per the linked Article Hans Asperger himself described the individuals that he termed as having the condition to have motor skills problems in 50 to 90 percent of individuals and found it hard to take part in team sports..

Quote:
In 1944 Hans Asperger described a condition he termed autistic psychopathy, characterised by problems in social integration and non-verbal communication associated with idiosyncratic verbal communication and an egocentric preoccupation with unusual and circumscribed interests. Patients with this condition had difficulties with empathy and intuition and had a tendency to intellectualisation. They were also clumsy (50–90% had motor coordination problems), found it hard to take part in team sports and exhibited behavioural difficulties including aggression and being victims of bullying. Asperger did not provide diagnostic criteria for this condition and it remained obscure until a review article by Lorna Wing in 1981.


You on the other hand have presented an opinion that motor skills is a co-morbid condition of Autism, with absolutely no third party sources to back up your individual opinion. No, Motor skills problems is not a co-morbid with Aspergers it is a clinical feature of Aspergers, that two widely used diagnostic tools still use to diagnosis Aspergers with.

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the assertion that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of Aspergers/Autism and still used as a diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, there are no available reputable sources that state that motor skills problems are a co-morbid with either autism or aspergers. If you can find any source, please provide it, otherwise I am listening to one person's opinion that Motor skills problems are a co-morbid condition of low functioning autism.

Here is the actual quote from the reference you provided that criticized multiple intelligence, that also states that many educationalists support it. If you are calling it a lie, than the rest of your referenced article is in question as well.

Quote:
The theory has been met with mixed responses. Traditional intelligence tests and psychometrics have generally found high correlations between different tasks and aspects of intelligence, rather than the low correlations which Gardner's theory predicts. Nevertheless many educationalists support the practical value of the approaches suggested by the theory.[1]


These are the facts in the article you presented; if you call them a lie, I don't trust any of the other facts either.



Gedrene
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20 Nov 2011, 3:39 pm

aghogday wrote:
Motor clumsiness, is actually what is in the ICD10 and the Gilberg diagnositic criteria for Aspergers commonly used in the UK where you live.
No, that diagnostic is for autism and aspergers. You are mixing things up. The ICD 10 uses this system where they are referred to together in the same diagnostics sheet. As you will see they say a delay or lack in speech, but as you have already said yourself and as can be seen in the DSM IV a delay in speech is not medically significant in asperger's.
http://www.niccy.org/uploaded_docs/Aspe ... ndix_1.pdf

aghogday wrote:
Deficits can be from mild to severe, there is no definition of deficit or deficiency that states it means incapability.
This is not apples and oranges. This is cox and royal gala. If someone has a deficit the fact is that they are incapable of having motor skills equal to that of people without deficits.

aghogday wrote:
Gillberg's (1991) diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome
The 1991 should give it away. Furthermore clumsiness doesn't mean deficit. A lot of people can be clumsy. Clumsy doesn't mean medically significant ataxia.

aghogday wrote:
You on the other hand have presented an opinion that motor skills is a co-morbid condition of Autism, with absolutely no third party sources to back up your individual opinion
I am sorry but saying that something is an opinion doewsn't discard whether it is right or not. Nothing like cheap lawyer's tricks to disprove what could be correct. Not that it matters when the fact I am asserting is that motor deficicncy is a lower-functioning trait, although some aspies may very well have it.

Furthermore I think the DSM IV clearly states only repetitive and stereotyped movements as a sign of asperger's, whilst it is the autism page that talks about motor skills deficits.

Also fact is that most of what you say is not third party sourced either to begin with.

aghogday wrote:
There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the assertion that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of Aspergers/Autism
And now we are trying to fog the definition between aspergers where deficits are not typical and autism where they are more typical once again. This is a cheap trick.

aghogday wrote:
Nevertheless many educationalists support the practical value of the approaches suggested by the theory.
it links us to one teaching school in boston or the north-east. The fact remains that much of the United Sates does not subscribe to the pseudoscientific redefinition of the word intelligence to mean ability.



aghogday
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20 Nov 2011, 4:52 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
Motor clumsiness, is actually what is in the ICD10 and the Gilberg diagnositic criteria for Aspergers commonly used in the UK where you live.
No, that diagnostic is for autism and aspergers. You are mixing things up. The ICD 10 uses this system where they are referred to together in the same diagnostics sheet. As you will see they say a delay or lack in speech, but as you have already said yourself and as can be seen in the DSM IV a delay in speech is not medically significant in asperger's.
http://www.niccy.org/uploaded_docs/Aspe ... ndix_1.pdf

aghogday wrote:
Deficits can be from mild to severe, there is no definition of deficit or deficiency that states it means incapability.
This is not apples and oranges. This is cox and royal gala. If someone has a deficit the fact is that they are incapable of having motor skills equal to that of people without deficits.

aghogday wrote:
Gillberg's (1991) diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome
The 1991 should give it away. Furthermore clumsiness doesn't mean deficit. A lot of people can be clumsy. Clumsy doesn't mean medically significant ataxia.

aghogday wrote:
You on the other hand have presented an opinion that motor skills is a co-morbid condition of Autism, with absolutely no third party sources to back up your individual opinion
I am sorry but saying that something is an opinion doewsn't discard whether it is right or not. Nothing like cheap lawyer's tricks to disprove what could be correct. Not that it matters when the fact I am asserting is that motor deficicncy is a lower-functioning trait, although some aspies may very well have it.

Furthermore I think the DSM IV clearly states only repetitive and stereotyped movements as a sign of asperger's, whilst it is the autism page that talks about motor skills deficits.

Also fact is that most of what you say is not third party sourced either to begin with.

aghogday wrote:
There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports the assertion that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of Aspergers/Autism
And now we are trying to fog the definition between aspergers where deficits are not typical and autism where they are more typical once again. This is a cheap trick.

aghogday wrote:
Nevertheless many educationalists support the practical value of the approaches suggested by the theory.
it links us to one teaching school in boston or the north-east. The fact remains that much of the United Sates does not subscribe to the pseudoscientific redefinition of the word intelligence to mean ability.


I'm not confused at all the only point I was making is that in the ICD 10 motor clumsiness is included in the diagnostic criteria (a) in the ICD10. It is obviously not a necessary diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, otherwise those people without motor skills problems with this part of the diagnositic criteria would not gain a diagnosis, but it is clearly a part of the overall diagnostic criteria for Aspergers syndrome as stated here in section (a) of the ICD-10 from your reference.

Apparently you may not have scrolled down far enough on your reference to get to the diagnostic criteria for aspergers syndrome. In the definition of Aspergers it talks about some elements being common, but the actual diagnostic criteria, clearly defines exactly what the diagnostic criteria for asperger's syndrome is in the ICD=10.

Quote:
Diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome taken from ICD-10
([Diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome taken from ICD-10
(a) There is no clinically significant general delay in spoken or receptive language or
cognitive development. Diagnosis requires that single words should have developed by
2 years of age or earlier and that communicative phrases be used by 3 years of age or
earlier. Self-help skills, adaptive behaviour and curiosity about the environment during
the first 3 years should be at a level consistent with normal intellectual development.
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual
(although not a necessary diagnostic feature). Isolated special skills, often related to
abnormal preoccupations, are common, but are not required for diagnosis.
(b) There are qualitative abnormalities in reciprocal social interaction (criteria as for
autism).
(c) The individual exhibits an unusual intense, circumscribed interest of restricted,
repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour interests and activities (criteria as for
autism; however, it would be less usual for these to include either motor mannerisms or
preoccupations with part-objects or non-functional elements of play materials).
(d) The disorder is not attributable to other varieties of pervasive developmental
disorder; simple schizophrenia schizotypal disorder; obsessive-compulsive disorder;
anakastic personality disorder; reactive and disinhibited attachment disorders of
childhood.


This statement doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote:
If someone has a deficit the fact is that they are incapable of having motor skills equal to that of people without deficits


If someone has any kind of deficit they have a deficit. If they by any way shape or form find a way to overcome that deficit they no longer necessarily have an observable deficit. This doesn't mean that the deficit never existed, or that the underlying physiological cause of the deficit does not exist, it just means it was successfully accommodated.

Never the less, the majority of people diagnosed with Aspergers have observable motor skills problems, that are clinical features/part of the diagnostic criteria; that's a fact, and illustrated in both the ICD 10 and gilberg criteria. It's also a fact illustrated by Asperger himself, and Lord from 1995, in the clinical features, reference that I provided earlier in the thread.

Anything observed lower than normal is a deficit, and in these majority of individuals diagnosed with Aspergers that do indeed have motor skills problems that are lower that what is normally seen in individuals, meaning they do have some degree of a deficit/impairment/problem with motor skills.

The bottom line is this: Motor skills problems/deficits are a usual clinical feature/diagnostic criteria in Aspergers. If you like anecdotal facts better than the actual resources that I and you have provided now that you provided the actual diagnostic guidelines for Aspergers from the ICD10, do a search here on the many different posts where people with aspergers have talked about their motor skills deficits.

There are whole thread where people illustrate the handwriting problems they have as a result of deficits in fine motor skills. People talk about problems with coordination, clumsiness, playing team sports. All the stuff we have been talking about here.

I have sourced Lord, Asperger, ICD10 and Gilberg criteria, all with third party sources available in this thread. You just provided another reference from the ICD10 that proves my point.

The internet is a huge resource, if you can google any reputable source that states that motor skills problems are co-morbids with autism or aspergers, I will be shocked. What you will find is it is a common part, or clinical feature of Aspergers. I have heard no one but you suggest that it is a co-morbid condition associated with autism or aspergers.



Gedrene
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20 Nov 2011, 5:15 pm

aghogday wrote:
the only point I was making is that in the ICD 10 motor clumsiness is included in the diagnostic criteria
You said motor clumsiness, and given how you tried to talk about it as if it proved your point that motor deficiency was part of the asperger's diagnosis it was an attempt to try and prove it using the ICD10 and Gillberg diagnostics as can be evidenced with this quote when you try and stuff it all under one roof:
aghogday wrote:
There is no source that lists motor skills clumsiness, problems, deficits, issues or whatever


aghogday wrote:
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual
Urgh :/ Again you try to ignore what I say.
Gedrene wrote:
No, that diagnostic is for autism and aspergers. You are mixing things up. The ICD 10 uses this system where they are referred to together in the same diagnostics sheet. As you will see they say a delay or lack in speech, but as you have already said yourself and as can be seen in the DSM IV a delay in speech is not medically significant in asperger's.


aghogday wrote:
If someone has any kind of deficit they have a deficit.
Tautology. I never said otherwise anyway so a pointless tautology. My point was a response to this incorrent statement:
aghogday wrote:
there is no definition of deficit or deficiency that states it means incapability

I am sorry but deficit means incapable to be as good as someone else. So you're wrong. And you ignored it:
Gedrene wrote:
If someone has a deficit the fact is that they are incapable of having motor skills equal to that of people without deficits


ahogday wrote:
I have sourced Lord, Asperger, ICD10 and Gilberg criteria, all with third party sources available in this thread. You just provided another reference from the ICD10 that proves my point.
A series of lies. I sourced the ICD10, referred to Gillberg and used the DSM IV.

You said that the ICD10 said aspies have motor skill deficits. I corrected you by saying that the ICD10 diagnostic sheet puts autism and aspergers under the same umbrella and the DSM IV says that only stimming is in the asperger's diagnosis and motor skills deficits not included.

You said that Gillberg said that 'motor clumsiness' was part of asperger's, when actually it was just clumsiness. Motor clumsiness was just an obvious attempt on your part to use the diagnosis by somehow binding together the term motor deficit (which you had been referring to forever beforehand) and clumsiness (what it actually said).

Your attempt to try and link up asperger's and deficits in motor skills again was by referring to Hans Asperger's original 1944 paper, when the differences between aspergers and autism were by no means established at all.

I did not prove any truth at all. All that was proved was that you weren't paying attention. A sign of a certain autism characteristic peeking through maybe?

aghogday wrote:
If you like anecdotal facts better than the actual resources
An anecdotal fact is still a fact. To say that anecdotal evidence not presented in an over-offcialized form is worth less is a clear sign of argument from authority.
Furthermore I used the DSM IV and corrected your use of the ICD10 and gillberg resources.



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20 Nov 2011, 7:13 pm

yet my motor skills are not impaired enough not to be able to snowboard a glacier, in reality does the theoretical differences really matter that much?

i experience small involuntary lockups when overwhelmed and i have a tendency to lose ballance when a sharp balance change is in order where my brother does not (then again he teaches surfing, snowboarded as long as me and competes on a national level(surfing))

then again i dont know if its fine motor control or not, i have a lot harder time at writing than i would like with frequent mistypes (usually wrongly hit keys or wrong muscle sequencing, typing the letters in another order than i intended)


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20 Nov 2011, 9:27 pm

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
the only point I was making is that in the ICD 10 motor clumsiness is included in the diagnostic criteria



Gedrene Wrote:

Quote:
You said motor clumsiness, and given how you tried to talk about it as if it proved your point that motor deficiency was part of the asperger's diagnosis it was an attempt to try and prove it using the ICD10 and Gillberg diagnostics as can be evidenced with this quote when you try and stuff it all under one roof:


aghogday wrote:
There is no source that lists motor skills clumsiness, problems, deficits, issues or whatever


Aghogday wrote:

Full context of what I said was:

Quote:
Motor clumsiness, is actually what is in the ICD10 and the Gilberg diagnositic criteria for Aspergers commonly used in the UK where you live. There is no source that lists motor skills clumsiness, problems, deficits, issues or whatever synomym one may choose to use for motor skills problems that are a feature/diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, as a co-morbid condition, it is either listed as a feature, or part of the diagnostic criteria in two widely used criteria used to diagnose Aspergers.


aghogday wrote:
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual
Urgh :/ Again you try to ignore what I say.
Gedrene wrote:
No, that diagnostic is for autism and aspergers. You are mixing things up. The ICD 10 uses this system where they are referred to together in the same diagnostics sheet. As you will see they say a delay or lack in speech, but as you have already said yourself and as can be seen in the DSM IV a delay in speech is not medically significant in asperger's.


Aghogday wrote:
I'm not ignoring anything, you again seem to be missing what the ICD10 states from the very reference you provided, maybe you missed it again, but the full diagnostic criteria for Aspergers which includes motor skills delays and motor clumsiness is in the ICD10 diagnostic criteria under section A from the Aspergers Diagnosis in the ICD10; you are reading what it says in the definition of Aspergers apparently, where it states the two conditions are related, but nowhere in the ICD10 does it suggest that speech delay is part of Aspergers. The full diagnostic from the ICD10 is included below:


Quote:
Diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome taken from ICD-10
(a) There is no clinically significant general delay in spoken or receptive language or
cognitive development
. Diagnosis requires that single words should have developed by
2 years of age or earlier and that communicative phrases be used by 3 years of age or
earlier. Self-help skills, adaptive behaviour and curiosity about the environment during
the first 3 years should be at a level consistent with normal intellectual development.
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual (although not a necessary diagnostic feature). Isolated special skills, often related to
abnormal preoccupations, are common, but are not required for diagnosis.
(b) There are qualitative abnormalities in reciprocal social interaction (criteria as for
autism).
(c) The individual exhibits an unusual intense, circumscribed interest of restricted,
repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behaviour interests and activities (criteria as for
autism; however, it would be less usual for these to include either motor mannerisms or
preoccupations with part-objects or non-functional elements of play materials).
(d) The disorder is not attributable to other varieties of pervasive developmental
disorder; simple schizophrenia schizotypal disorder; obsessive-compulsive disorder;
anakastic personality disorder; reactive and disinhibited attachment disorders of
childhood.


aghogday wrote:
If someone has any kind of deficit they have a deficit.


Gedrene Wrote:
Quote:
Tautology. I never said otherwise anyway so a pointless tautology. My point was a response to this incorrent statement:
Quote:

aghogday wrote:
there is no definition of deficit or deficiency that states it means incapability


Gedrene Wrote:
Quote:
I am sorry but deficit means incapable to be as good as someone else. So you're wrong. And you ignored it:
Quote:
Gedrene wrote:
If someone has a deficit the fact is that they are incapable of having motor skills equal to that of people without deficits


Aghogday Wrote:


Full context of what I said:

Quote:
If someone has any kind of deficit they have a deficit. If they by any way shape or form find a way to overcome that deficit they no longer necessarily have an observable deficit. This doesn't mean that the deficit never existed, or that the underlying physiological cause of the deficit does not exist, it just means it was successfully accommodated.

Never the less, the majority of people diagnosed with Aspergers have observable motor skills problems, that are clinical features/part of the diagnostic criteria; that's a fact, and illustrated in both the ICD 10 and gilberg criteria. It's also a fact illustrated by Asperger himself, and Lord from 1995, in the clinical features, reference that I provided earlier in the thread.


Aghogday Wrote:
Quote:
Having a deficit does not mean someone is incapable of having normal function, or incapable of being good as someone else, it just means they have an impairment in functioning.

A person could have a deficit in arm function from an accident and later improve the function and no longer be seen as having a deficit in arm function. There is no definition of "deficit" that suggests that a person with a deficit is incapable of normal functioning or is incapable of being as good as someone else. Some people do overcome deficits in functioning.


http://medical.yourdictionary.com/deficit

deficit medical definition

noun
1.A lack or deficiency of a substance.
2.A lack or impairment in mental or physical functioning.


Aghogday Wrote:

Quote:
I have sourced Lord, Asperger, ICD10 and Gilberg criteria, all with third party sources available in this thread. You just provided another reference from the ICD10 that proves my point.


Gedrene wrote:

Quote:
A series of lies. I sourced the ICD10, referred to Gillberg and used the DSM IV.



Aghogday wrote:

Quote:
The only link you provided was to the ICD10, which helped proved my point that motor skills problems are part of the criteria, in the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers; you referred to the gilberg criteria and made a reference to what you thought the DSMV said, but you didn't provide any actual links to sources or quote any information from either.of these sources. You made an inaccurate statement that the Gilberg criteria didn't say motor clumsiness, only clumsiness, but I already provided a source which I provide here again that clearly shows it says motor clumsiness


Gedrene wrote:

Quote:
You said that the ICD10 said aspies have motor skill deficits. I corrected you by saying that the ICD10 diagnostic sheet puts autism and aspergers under the same umbrella and the DSM IV says that only stimming is in the asperger's diagnosis and motor skills deficits not included.

You said that Gillberg said that 'motor clumsiness' was part of asperger's, when actually it was just clumsiness. Motor clumsiness was just an obvious attempt on your part to use the diagnosis by somehow binding together the term motor deficit (which you had been referring to forever beforehand) and clumsiness (what it actually said)


Aghogday Wrote:
Quote:
I provided a link and the criteria which does say Motor clumsiness is a criteria in the gilberg


http://apt.rcpsych.org/content/7/4/310.full

Quote:

Gillberg's (1991) diagnostic criteria for Asperger syndrome
Social impairments

Narrow interests

Repetitive routines

Speech and language peculiarities

Non-verbal communication problems

Motor clumsiness


aghogday wrote:

Quote:
You already asserted in another post that motor skills among the other features that I listed as clinical features of aspergers from a third part resource, could only be co-morbids associated with low functioning autism.


Gedrene wrote:
Quote:
Misrepresentation of what I said. What I say is that autism is a junk taxon of various different issues all lumped together, and whilst motor skills are a problem for autistics the fact is that they are not similar to me in this way.

My motor skills were remedied in the same way most children improve their motor skills, through effort. It therefore was no medical issue.


Aghogday Wrote:
Quote:
Here is what I said and you said in response again:


aghogday wrote:

Quote:

Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.



Gedrene wrote:

Quote:
And a sign of ironically very clumsy work on the behalf of clinicians with no understanding of the actual core autism diagnosis, which is:
- communication difficulties
-a lack of social interest
-poor grasp of irrelevant communicative features such as analogy
-strong personal interests.

To say anything else is autism one is talking about low functioning autism not aspergers, and even then it's clear that it's a comorbidity



Aghogday Wrote:
Quote:
This is my argument that it is clear that motor skills problems are a clinical feature/diagnostic criteria usually seen in Aspergers not a co-morbid condition in Aspergers. Hans Aspergers identified it first in 1944, 50 years before the diagnosis appeared. And the motor skills problems continue to be identified in the Gilberg and ICD 10 Diagnostic Criteria for the actual disorder of Aspergers. The Quotes from the references that prove this are in this post, clearly identified above.



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21 Nov 2011, 5:50 am

Oodain wrote:
yet my motor skills are not impaired enough not to be able to snowboard a glacier, in reality does the theoretical differences really matter that much?

i experience small involuntary lockups when overwhelmed and i have a tendency to lose ballance when a sharp balance change is in order where my brother does not (then again he teaches surfing, snowboarded as long as me and competes on a national level(surfing))

then again i dont know if its fine motor control or not, i have a lot harder time at writing than i would like with frequent mistypes (usually wrongly hit keys or wrong muscle sequencing, typing the letters in another order than i intended)
Aye aye. Well any person can have multiple keyboard mistypes. One only needs to take a quick look at youtube. And quite a few people's handwriting isn't that good. people only focus in on it for aspies because they have other issues. That and I am not so stuffed about typos as others I think.



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21 Nov 2011, 6:31 am

Your last comment is a complete mess but I'll try and salvage it for what it's worth.


One can see this in practice with regards to the ICD-10 when one looks on this website when it says:

Quote:
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual (although not a necessary diagnostic feature).

http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/about_as ... s_syndrome

And lo and behold I said that motor issues were not a necessary feature of asperger's.

aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.
For starters you are simply trying to crowd together autism and aspergers once again, even though the fact is that I was always talking about asperger's and autism seperately. Your attempt to mix up the whole thing is a failure, and a see-through attempt at misrepresenting what I say.

aghogday wrote:
This is my argument that it is clear that motor skills problems are a clinical feature/diagnostic criteria usually seen in Aspergers not a co-morbid condition in Aspergers. Hans Aspergers identified it first in 1944
D'oh this is cheap aghogday. The fact is that asperger's syndrome was made long after asperger died. He, for all I know, may have been talking about people who were not simply those with what we call asperger's syndrome but autism too where actual motor skill deficits are more often a part of the issue, and not simply clumsiness.

aghogday wrote:
There is no definition of "deficit" that suggests that a person with a deficit is incapable of normal functioning or is incapable of being as good as someone else. Some people do overcome deficits in functioning.
i wasn't arguing about this at all. I was mocking the tautological argument that a deficit is a deficit. It was also not necessary.

Gedrene wrote:
I am sorry but deficit means incapable to be as good as someone else
Reading that one can see deficit as meaning someone is not as good because of some deficiency and unable to match up because of that deficiency. People can improve beyond their ability to improve. And that is not something equal to motor clumsiness.



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21 Nov 2011, 1:50 pm

Gedrene wrote:
Your last comment is a complete mess but I'll try and salvage it for what it's worth.


One can see this in practice with regards to the ICD-10 when one looks on this website when it says:
Quote:
However, motor milestones may be somewhat delayed and motor clumsiness is usual (although not a necessary diagnostic feature).

http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/about_as ... s_syndrome

And lo and behold I said that motor issues were not a necessary feature of asperger's.

Aghogday Wrote:
Quote:
I already made this clear in the first post I made about the ICD10 that it wasn't a necessary diagnostic feature, it still though is a usual diagnostic feature clearly listed among all the other diagnostic features in the ICD criteria of diagnostic features for Aspergers. If it were a necessary diagnostic feature it would mean that those individuals that did not have this diagnostic feature would not receive a diagnosis of Aspergers. They state that the diagnostic criteria of motor clumsiness is usually seen in Aspergers, not seen in all cases.


aghogday wrote:
Problems with fine motor control, clumsiness, and posture, are not co-morbids with autism and aspergers, they are actual clinical features of Autism and Aspergers that are usually part of the disorder in people with a diagnosis.
For starters you are simply trying to crowd together autism and aspergers once again, even though the fact is that I was always talking about asperger's and autism seperately. Your attempt to mix up the whole thing is a failure, and a see-through attempt at misrepresenting what I say.

Aghogday wrote:
Quote:
My statement is factual and backed up with evidence. You suggested that Motor Skill problems were not a clinical feature of Aspergers, and suggested it was a co-mobid that was part of low functioning autism, as referenced by your quote in the previous post. It is not a co-morbid condition associated with any type of autism, it is a clinical feature seen in Aspergers and Autism Disorder. It is a clinical feature of the disorders not a co-morbid condition associated with the disorders. And, furthermore it part of the diagnostic criteria listed in the ICD10 and Gilsberg criteria for Aspergers, per the references I have provided


aghogday wrote:
This is my argument that it is clear that motor skills problems are a clinical feature/diagnostic criteria usually seen in Aspergers not a co-morbid condition in Aspergers. Hans Aspergers identified it first in 1944
D'oh this is cheap aghogday. The fact is that asperger's syndrome was made long after asperger died. He, for all I know, may have been talking about people who were not simply those with what we call asperger's syndrome but autism too where actual motor skill deficits are more often a part of the issue, and not simply clumsiness.

Aghogday Wrote:
I clearly stated in my last post that he made these observations 50 years before the diagnosis appeared, however his research was the source of information that led to the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, and his observations about motor skills problems have been confirmed by scientific research, and as already stated are clearly listed as clinical features in Aspergers, and part of the diagnostic criteria of the ICD10 and Gilsberg Criteria for Aspergers.
Quote:

aghogday wrote:
There is no definition of "deficit" that suggests that a person with a deficit is incapable of normal functioning or is incapable of being as good as someone else. Some people do overcome deficits in functioning.
i wasn't arguing about this at all. I was mocking the tautological argument that a deficit is a deficit. It was also not necessary.

Gedrene wrote:
I am sorry but deficit means incapable to be as good as someone else
Reading that one can see deficit as meaning someone is not as good because of some deficiency and unable to match up because of that deficiency. People can improve beyond their ability to improve. And that is not something equal to motor clumsiness.


I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning. It makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal. Most people with aspergers don't fully overcome it, it is why it is considered a clinical feature usually seen in Aspergers.

Not being able to write neatly because of fine motor skills problems or not being able to overcome clumsiness because of motor skills problems, are both impairment/deficits that are clinical features in Aspergers that vary among individuals.

Some have no impairments/deficits in these motor skills abilities and some have significant impariments/deficits in these motor skills abilities, however it has been identified through scientific research as a clinical feature of Aspergers that is usually seen in the condition.



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22 Nov 2011, 5:00 pm

aghogday wrote:
I clearly stated in my last post that he made these observations 50 years before the diagnosis appeared, however his research was the source of information that led to the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, and his observations about motor skills problems have been confirmed by scientific research, and as already stated are clearly listed as clinical features in Aspergers, and part of the diagnostic criteria of the ICD10 and Gilsberg Criteria for Aspergers.
And I am saying that this isn't true and have said so already. My argument refutes this one. Other arguments have had a part in refuting it too. Clumisiness isn't deficiency and whilst we can claim that asperger was the namesake of apserger's syndrome I think he would have dealt with autistics who were not higher functioning as well.

The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?

Aghogday wrote:
I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning
And I never disagreed with that idea.

aghogday wrote:
makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal.
yes, but the fact is that a deficiency means they can only improve so much vis a vis other people. Otherwise we would call it lack of development of underdeveloped motor skills when we talk about autistic motor skills not being as good. Then again I believe this is the case more often.

I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.



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23 Nov 2011, 1:30 am

Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
I clearly stated in my last post that he made these observations 50 years before the diagnosis appeared, however his research was the source of information that led to the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, and his observations about motor skills problems have been confirmed by scientific research, and as already stated are clearly listed as clinical features in Aspergers, and part of the diagnostic criteria of the ICD10 and Gilsberg Criteria for Aspergers.
And I am saying that this isn't true and have said so already. My argument refutes this one. Other arguments have had a part in refuting it too. Clumisiness isn't deficiency and whilst we can claim that asperger was the namesake of apserger's syndrome I think he would have dealt with autistics who were not higher functioning as well.

The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?

Aghogday wrote:
I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning
And I never disagreed with that idea.

aghogday wrote:
makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal.
yes, but the fact is that a deficiency means they can only improve so much vis a vis other people. Otherwise we would call it lack of development of underdeveloped motor skills when we talk about autistic motor skills not being as good. Then again I believe this is the case more often.

I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.


I provided evidence that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of autism.

You provided an opinion of what you thought a definition of deficit was, I clarified it by presented a source, that clearly indicates that deficit means an impairment in functioning.

We are arguing semantics here. Issues, deficits, impairments are all words used to describe problems in physical functioning. Clumsiness is a physical manisfestation of an impairment in motor coordination in many individuals with Aspegers; it's a fairly minor impairment in physical functioning considering the grande scheme of life, but from a Medical perspective that is what it is.

It's an observable physiological Motor skills problem that has been researched and noted in 50 to 90 percent of individuals with Aspergers, and considered a clinical feature. And medical research provides evidence that the cerebellum, the part of the brain that controls this, is different in some individuals that have aspergers.

Hopefully this information from Wiki will provide a clearer understanding, of the relationship of clumsiness and motor coordination skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skills_disorder

Quote:
Motor skills disorder (also known as motor coordination disorder or motor dyspraxia) is a human developmental disorder that impairs motor coordination in daily activities. It is neurological in origin. Many children with autism[citation needed] or Asperger syndrome experience deficits in motor skills development, which often manifests as abnormal clumsiness, but is not major enough to be considered a disorder in and of itself.

The disorder has its basis in the brain, a network of neural connections that allow humans to process the information received. Motor Dyspraxia is a result of weak or disorganised connections in the brain, which then translates to trouble with motor coordination. Movements are performed because the brain sends messages to the area requiring action. The dyspraxia is a result of weak or poorly structured neural pathways to the moving parts of the body.

Clumsiness and tendency to fall down are a matter of poor balance and gross motor coordination. The origin of all of these difficulties is the vestibular system of the inner ear. The vestibule is an organ responsible for maintaining balance and coordination and is located beside the cochlea, which acts as a sound receptor. Although they attend to different information, the proximity of the vestibule and cochlea allows them to complement each other. The other consequence of their relationship is that if one system is not functioning well, the other is concurrently affected.


Aspergers isn't a disease, it is a neurological disorder, that some accommodate to very well in their lives and some struggle with. It's neither all good or all bad. But, I see no use in denying the reality of the clinical features associated with the condition that are clearly identified as impairments in some with the condition.

I accept the fact that you don't agree with the commonly accepted research on this issue, or my opinion that is based on that research. I appreciate the apology for saying people are lying; all the personal stuff has no place in a civil discussion. Not everyone is going to ignore it as much as I have.



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23 Nov 2011, 6:23 am

aghogday wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
aghogday wrote:
I clearly stated in my last post that he made these observations 50 years before the diagnosis appeared, however his research was the source of information that led to the diagnostic criteria of Aspergers, and his observations about motor skills problems have been confirmed by scientific research, and as already stated are clearly listed as clinical features in Aspergers, and part of the diagnostic criteria of the ICD10 and Gilsberg Criteria for Aspergers.
And I am saying that this isn't true and have said so already. My argument refutes this one. Other arguments have had a part in refuting it too. Clumisiness isn't deficiency and whilst we can claim that asperger was the namesake of apserger's syndrome I think he would have dealt with autistics who were not higher functioning as well.

The ICD-10 has motor clumsiness, but this isn't deficiency. We aren't talking about someone with deficiency in picking up objects. Also from what I have already shown sites agree that when talking about ICD-10 motor skill issues are not a necessary part of the diagnosis, like I claimed. Gillberg also said clumsiness. That doesn't mean motor skill deficiency like you were aseerting. Do you want me to quote where you tried to mix these definitions and words up?

Aghogday wrote:
I already presented the medical definition that deficit means an impairment of functioning
And I never disagreed with that idea.

aghogday wrote:
makes no sense to suggest that someone with a deficit is incapable of being good as someone else, when many people with many different problems overcome their deficits in functioning, and present as normal.
yes, but the fact is that a deficiency means they can only improve so much vis a vis other people. Otherwise we would call it lack of development of underdeveloped motor skills when we talk about autistic motor skills not being as good. Then again I believe this is the case more often.

I think it's a good time to come to an end. I am sure if we met in real life we wouldn't keep catching up on each other like this. Please make your last word if you want to. I feel very stressed right now about how I have just been treated. I want to say sorry for saying something was a lie. I will restrict myself to saying it was untrue in future given the circumstances.


I provided evidence that motor skills problems are a clinical feature of autism.

You provided an opinion of what you thought a definition of deficit was, I clarified it by presented a source, that clearly indicates that deficit means an impairment in functioning.

We are arguing semantics here. Issues, deficits, impairments are all words used to describe problems in physical functioning. Clumsiness is a physical manisfestation of an impairment in motor coordination in many individuals with Aspegers; it's a fairly minor impairment in physical functioning considering the grande scheme of life, but from a Medical perspective that is what it is.

It's an observable physiological Motor skills problem that has been researched and noted in 50 to 90 percent of individuals with Aspergers, and considered a clinical feature. And medical research provides evidence that the cerebellum, the part of the brain that controls this, is different in some individuals that have aspergers.

Hopefully this information from Wiki will provide a clearer understanding, of the relationship of clumsiness and motor coordination skills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_skills_disorder

Quote:
Motor skills disorder (also known as motor coordination disorder or motor dyspraxia) is a human developmental disorder that impairs motor coordination in daily activities. It is neurological in origin. Many children with autism[citation needed] or Asperger syndrome experience deficits in motor skills development, which often manifests as abnormal clumsiness, but is not major enough to be considered a disorder in and of itself.

The disorder has its basis in the brain, a network of neural connections that allow humans to process the information received. Motor Dyspraxia is a result of weak or disorganised connections in the brain, which then translates to trouble with motor coordination. Movements are performed because the brain sends messages to the area requiring action. The dyspraxia is a result of weak or poorly structured neural pathways to the moving parts of the body.

Clumsiness and tendency to fall down are a matter of poor balance and gross motor coordination. The origin of all of these difficulties is the vestibular system of the inner ear. The vestibule is an organ responsible for maintaining balance and coordination and is located beside the cochlea, which acts as a sound receptor. Although they attend to different information, the proximity of the vestibule and cochlea allows them to complement each other. The other consequence of their relationship is that if one system is not functioning well, the other is concurrently affected.


Aspergers isn't a disease, it is a neurological disorder, that some accommodate to very well in their lives and some struggle with. It's neither all good or all bad. But, I see no use in denying the reality of the clinical features associated with the condition that are clearly identified as impairments in some with the condition.

I accept the fact that you don't agree with the commonly accepted research on this issue, or my opinion that is based on that research. I appreciate the apology for saying people are lying; all the personal stuff has no place in a civil discussion. Not everyone is going to ignore it as much as I have.


I disagree and I have believed that I have said why, but I said I would not argue any more. So I'll be quiet. I said lie instead of untruth. It's nothing like a mad tract though.



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07 Mar 2017, 8:49 am

nostromo wrote:
[random]
Has anyone read the Moomintroll books?
It just occured to me that the diagnostic criteria aghogday listed above for Aspergers describe the Hemulen. 8O
[/random]


It suddenly occurred to me as I was reading the third book to my kids. I found your post when I went to Google to see if anyone else had made this connection.


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07 Mar 2017, 1:47 pm

Since the thread was started in 2011 I hope the OP's executive functioning is not so bad that she has yet to complete the assignment.


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