At my wit's end... poo on the wall...

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monsters
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21 Mar 2012, 2:13 pm

Hi I've been looking at selective mutism, my son shows a lot of these signs but he can talk fine... He's nearly 9 an is wipping phoo over the walls an will wee on his clothes I've got a docs appointment for him... But I'm concerned about story's he tell us like his dads girlfriend had a baby an it got hit by a car and he will tell us how much blood there was.. he will also tell his little brother and sister horrible story's like someone will come thou the window and hurt them, my son tells a lot of lies aswell but can't seem to help himself... Have you any ideas on what I can do...



monsters
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21 Mar 2012, 2:22 pm

I've tryed different wips an he will put them down the toilet so it gets blocked? And we have a chart for everything he does good he gets a treat but it doesn't work... I've asked him why he does it and he doesnt know... I love my son to bits an really won't to help him...



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22 Mar 2012, 7:09 am

http://www.freevideosforautistickids.co ... ining.html

Here is the link to the page from my free website that deals with potty training. It sounds like there is some encopresis going on. (My younger son was diagnosed with this, and I know how frustrating it can be). Basically, the child is developmentally over age four and knows where waste goes; however, he poops in inappropriate places as a symptom of a psychiatric condition. Treatment by a child psychiatrist (who can prescribe meds for the psychiatric issues) and treatment by an ABA therapist or child psychologist can both be very beneficial.


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monsters
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22 Mar 2012, 11:43 am

Thank you so much for your help. I am really grateful xXx



JustinsDad
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01 Sep 2012, 10:53 am

I'm so glad I found this topic. We've been dealing with this on and off with our 8 year old for the past 5 years. We never really considered him fully potty trained and I had suspicions that we were overly stressing him to use the potty when he wasn't ready yet. Now that he's older and in school he's shown the ability to recognize when he needs to go, and has even successfully and voluntarily used the potty in school and at home during the daytime. OTOH at night time whenever he awakes he soils his mattress, strips naked, shreds his pullup (yes, he still wears them) and flings the poop forcefully at the walls and ceiling and even stomps it into the carpeting. The thing that really confuses and upsets me is that he does this gleefully and laughs when discovered and during the cleanup.

blondeambition, thanks so much for your perspective and for the links. I am going to share the information with my wife and the many members of our treatment team who have ALL been stumped by this behavior.



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01 Sep 2012, 11:09 am

Does the poop always end up being smeared in the same place on the wall? What if you tried hanging a hand towel in that spot? Poop on a towel isn't ideal or anything, but at least you can throw it right in the washer.



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01 Sep 2012, 5:22 pm

What if you slept in there with him for a while and when he woke up and started to do that, you stopped him? Does punishment work more for him or positive reinforcement? If punishment does, then when you stop him, maybe a very mild punishment because he was trying to do it. If positive reinforcement works, maybe a reward for every day that he doesn't do it.


ETA; What about making him clean it off while you supervise. Granted, this will make it take forever to get cleaned up, but maybe that will somehow make it click in his mind that poop everywhere = him cleaning it up. I'm thinking that might work because he might start associating the poop not just with throwing it, but with having to clean it as well.


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chris5000
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01 Sep 2012, 6:12 pm

monsters wrote:
I've tryed different wips an he will put them down the toilet so it gets blocked? And we have a chart for everything he does good he gets a treat but it doesn't work... I've asked him why he does it and he doesnt know... I love my son to bits an really won't to help him...

you can get wipes flush, I believe there is even septic safe ones on the market.



JustinsDad
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02 Sep 2012, 9:44 am

lady_katie wrote:
Does the poop always end up being smeared in the same place on the wall? What if you tried hanging a hand towel in that spot? Poop on a towel isn't ideal or anything, but at least you can throw it right in the washer.


No, it seems to be opportunistic and targets are random. If anything though, the curtains are a target but only for wiping his hands on. The action itself is more of a throwing action where he throws it with a lot of force at the walls; smearing is a secondary thing that hints at an aversion to having it on him. As for the intent of your idea I like it, but not so much with a towel. I was thinking of putting a mural or a large decal on the wall or painting the walls with a type of paint that cannot be permeated as easily. I've often joked about using refrigerator paint for example. The only thing I don't like is that these types of paint are high gloss and for sensory's sake I'd like to remain with a flat satin.

BTW, on the bright side of things that he's been showing a lot of success during the daytime with using it appropriately and he even requests to use it but it has to be under supervision otherwise the bathrooms are locked to keep him from flushing toys. That has caused conflicts in the past which I could certainly see as a cause for anxiety but I've had to fix all the toilets in our house so many times that I'm nearly a master plumber. Since he likes to play in water so much and toilets are dirty I don't want to have him help me use the snake and plunger whenever he blocks a toilet.



JustinsDad
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02 Sep 2012, 10:04 am

OliveOilMom wrote:
What if you slept in there with him for a while and when he woke up and started to do that, you stopped him? Does punishment work more for him or positive reinforcement? If punishment does, then when you stop him, maybe a very mild punishment because he was trying to do it. If positive reinforcement works, maybe a reward for every day that he doesn't do it.


ETA; What about making him clean it off while you supervise. Granted, this will make it take forever to get cleaned up, but maybe that will somehow make it click in his mind that poop everywhere = him cleaning it up. I'm thinking that might work because he might start associating the poop not just with throwing it, but with having to clean it as well.


In fact, I have been sleeping with him for the past several months and have had some success though there are only fewer incidents. Sometimes he wakes up before I come to bed though or I will be sleeping too soundly to avert an incident. As for using the potty appropriately, as I described above he's had some success during the day when there is some structure/schedule. These incidents almost seem to be aversive and/or attention-seeking episodes that happen when he's left unattended.

The trick for me has been to mentally prepare myself for the shock of finding his room defiled and/or destroyed. I've purposely stayed up late each night just in case he were to wake up because there's less of a shock if I'm fully awake. OTOH there have been times when I've been sleeping in his room and the smell was the sensation that was strong enough to wake me - and by no means is he quiet when he wakes up!

OTOH, I do like the idea of having him use a sponge and bucket to clean up spots on the floors, as well as using the shampooer. It certainly would make me feel better about it because he thinks it's funny to see me clean up his messes and he laughs in my face when I scold him even gently. The problem is that he needs a LOT of supervision and when we do hand over hand he will stiffen up on us. It's almost like we have to make it fun too or he shuts down or elopes.

BTW, I was originally sleeping in the bed with him but then gradually transitioned to spreading out blankets on the floor and sleeping on the floor beside his bed. He sleeps in a twin size bunk bed so I did it more for my own comfort but then I decided to take the mattress off the top bunk and put it in the trundle drawer. That seemed to be something he liked, though I found that he wanted to sleep there too. Eventually I finally realized the wisdom of my wife's advice and took down the top bunk and set it up across the room and closed the trundle. He seemed to like sleeping out in open and my back has thanked me for sleeping in a bed once again. The throwing/smearing incidents seem to have abated somewhat but they still happen. As is said, they now seem to happen closer to the middle of the night as opposed to the early AM hours as before and he seems to be sleeping a little better too. All bets are off if he doesn't use the toilet to have a bowel movement during the day though.

So basically, I think it may be a combination of anxiety over being supervised in the bathroom and wanting to have a little space - though he also wants to know that we're paying attention to him. We haven't figured out how to satisfy his sensory/OCD needs either though; he LOVES water play.



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02 Sep 2012, 1:23 pm

JustinsDad wrote:
lady_katie wrote:
Does the poop always end up being smeared in the same place on the wall? What if you tried hanging a hand towel in that spot? Poop on a towel isn't ideal or anything, but at least you can throw it right in the washer.


I was thinking of putting a mural or a large decal on the wall or painting the walls with a type of paint that cannot be permeated as easily. I've often joked about using refrigerator paint for example. The only thing I don't like is that these types of paint are high gloss and for sensory's sake I'd like to remain with a flat satin.


That's a good idea. Being mentally prepared for the idea that this is going to happen again, and knowing that it's going to happen in the best way possible can only help ease the frustration. You could even put up bead board, or bead board wall paper. They look great and are easy to clean.



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03 Sep 2012, 1:48 am

It may be a sensorary thing...perhaps he's scared of the sink? The sounds it makes, the feel of the water or the soap or the smell? I was terrified of the bathrooms at my school (the sound of the toilet flushing and how dark it was and I couldn't stand being in there alone) so I would wash my hands in the drinking fountain or hold it all day until I got home. Maybe when he uses the bathroom next, be in the room with him and walk him through washing his hands.



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03 Sep 2012, 3:14 am

This is a shot in dark, because I do not even know how to do this, but are there foods you could have him eat at certain times of the day, to increase the likelihood of him evacuating his bowels in the late afternoon, or sometime before bed? Maybe a doctor or somebody could advise. I am not suggesting a laxative or anything, but maybe just altering the order of certain foods, he eats, a little bit, so you can get his bowel movements to be at a more convenient part of the day. This may very well be a ridiculous thought, I know, but if you could figure it out, it might be worth interjecting some change to attempt it. He might even sleep better if he does not have to go in the middle of the night.



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03 Sep 2012, 8:42 am

SHEILD wrote:
It may be a sensorary thing...perhaps he's scared of the sink? The sounds it makes, the feel of the water or the soap or the smell? I was terrified of the bathrooms at my school (the sound of the toilet flushing and how dark it was and I couldn't stand being in there alone) so I would wash my hands in the drinking fountain or hold it all day until I got home. Maybe when he uses the bathroom next, be in the room with him and walk him through washing his hands.


Quite the opposite. He looooves the sink - but on his terms. In fact, he seems to be drawn to it and gets hypnotized by it. I often find him running it and throwing things into it to see the water run over it. This goes for the toilet and the washing machine as well. I actually have to take steps to restrict his access to those things.



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03 Sep 2012, 9:02 am

In light of the previous we had a HUGE breakthrough last night for Justin! We kept the upstairs bathroom unlocked for 5yo Joey to use and dressed Justin in regular pajamas, not the kind with the zipper up the back that we made to keep him from stripping. About 15 minutes ago I was downstairs when I heard somebody get up. At first I thought it was my wife but then I saw the bathroom light come on. I assumed that my wife was helping Justin but when I looked in I saw that he was all alone in the bathroom and actually undressed and sitting on the toilet. No stains anywhere, no tossing things in the toilet - he was using it completely appropriately!