Who Is It, Really, Who Doesn't Understand?

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swbluto
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21 Nov 2011, 2:55 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Dawson pointed out that another way of interpreting the data was that oxytocin increased favoritism and exclusionary behavior, and she asked if that really should be considered "improvement." The unconscious bias of the researchers was that any change from autistic toward normal had to be an improvement.


Interesting. The pictures that I choose for my avatar suggest that I don't lack in oxytocin since there's a clear preference for cuteness and mods have noticed a pattern of exclusionary behavior from me in the past, so I'm guessing this is probably indicative of relatively higher levels of oxytocin. I don't know if it's high as "normals", but it seems higher than the board's average. So, yeah, I guess the link between oxytocin, favoritsm and exclusionary behavior seems to exist.



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21 Nov 2011, 4:05 pm

Are any of the mods trained and licence'd psychiatric practitioners?

Or up to date and existentialists in the field of psychology and neuroscience?

*Autodidactic Polymathic Existentialist*



bumble
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21 Nov 2011, 4:10 pm

AbleBaker wrote:
I don't think NTs really understand more - they just think they do. From my observation, people tend to assume that you feel as they do and thay all feel the same together. Since I don't pretend to know what they're feeling I think I'm more open to accepting that people feel differently.



People often think they know what I am feeling and yet, in their attempt to show empathy, they manage to generate feelings that I am not feeling at all. I fail to see how that is empathising. They assume that because they would feel one way over something that I must feel the same. It can be very annoying actually especially when people start trying to do things like comforting you when you are not even upset, just because they think you must be upset because they would be.



Apple_in_my_Eye
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21 Nov 2011, 5:53 pm

swbluto wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Dawson pointed out that another way of interpreting the data was that oxytocin increased favoritism and exclusionary behavior, and she asked if that really should be considered "improvement." The unconscious bias of the researchers was that any change from autistic toward normal had to be an improvement.


Interesting. The pictures that I choose for my avatar suggest that I don't lack in oxytocin since there's a clear preference for cuteness and mods have noticed a pattern of exclusionary behavior from me in the past, so I'm guessing this is probably indicative of relatively higher levels of oxytocin. I don't know if it's high as "normals", but it seems higher than the board's average. So, yeah, I guess the link between oxytocin, favoritsm and exclusionary behavior seems to exist.


Possibly, though I think that this stuff can get complicated. I think there are probably multiple factors that go into favoritism and exclusionary behavior IRL situations (the study used the really simple model of tossing a ball back and forth to other players).

Personally, I think the "ASD = lack of oxytocin" theory is messed up from the start. Plenty of autistics bond deeply with their pets, and that's an oxytocin thing. And, I'm just making this up on the spot, but maybe constantly being misunderstood, treated badly, and/or bombarded with overloading signals & behavior with no courtesy, causes autistics to have less oxytocin, because that fits with their experience. Having more oxytocin for humans under such circumstances would be kind of insane (like the thread by someone recently who had 3 "friends" run out on him in a restaurant, leaving him with the bill).



swbluto
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21 Nov 2011, 6:56 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
swbluto wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
Dawson pointed out that another way of interpreting the data was that oxytocin increased favoritism and exclusionary behavior, and she asked if that really should be considered "improvement." The unconscious bias of the researchers was that any change from autistic toward normal had to be an improvement.


Interesting. The pictures that I choose for my avatar suggest that I don't lack in oxytocin since there's a clear preference for cuteness and mods have noticed a pattern of exclusionary behavior from me in the past, so I'm guessing this is probably indicative of relatively higher levels of oxytocin. I don't know if it's high as "normals", but it seems higher than the board's average. So, yeah, I guess the link between oxytocin, favoritsm and exclusionary behavior seems to exist.


Possibly, though I think that this stuff can get complicated. I think there are probably multiple factors that go into favoritism and exclusionary behavior IRL situations (the study used the really simple model of tossing a ball back and forth to other players).

Personally, I think the "ASD = lack of oxytocin" theory is messed up from the start. Plenty of autistics bond deeply with their pets, and that's an oxytocin thing. And, I'm just making this up on the spot, but maybe constantly being misunderstood, treated badly, and/or bombarded with overloading signals & behavior with no courtesy, causes autistics to have less oxytocin, because that fits with their experience. Having more oxytocin for humans under such circumstances would be kind of insane (like the thread by someone recently who had 3 "friends" run out on him in a restaurant, leaving him with the bill).


That does seem possible that one would have less oxytocin in situations where being treated badly would decrease the "bonding expectations" and, possibly, oxytocin levels. I know that it's possible for me to feel an incredible bond with individuals, but I don't feel anywhere near as bonded with "everyday people" as other people appear to be (If I did, why would I spend so much time on here?), and I know I don't have a good track record with "everyday people", so that might explain that.



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21 Nov 2011, 8:29 pm

I think the OP is suffering from the same thing most of us go through early on.

I don't believe it's that we "get" anything better than NT's, except for one thing.

What life is like with Autism. We all "get" that, and NT's do not. Everything in here that seems to reflect that we get a lot that NT's don't, is rooted in the Autie experience. Of course it looks like we get it all. Because "it" is all from our perspective. Something that NT's will never really "get."


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21 Nov 2011, 10:15 pm

I think what they do understand is acceptable enough for other NTs or the group to welcome them in. basically to be accepted you've got to be enough like them to be welcomed in. You can be a little weird and They'll either like it or try to ignore it but when you're really different they might start to talk to you less. I don't know what it is but NT's have a way to acknowledge everybody when they are just talking to one person.
Maybe I'm just a bit messed up today. there's a party here tonight and I'm focusing on my basic needs, my cat, and I really want to get into some hardcore research. At times I feel really wired and really tired.
The NT's I've come across, well, most of them are gifted or artistic so we can talk about some things.

The pet thing is weird. I talk to my cat like she is a child, even call her 'baby' or give her nicknames. But I cannot baby talk a baby or talk to a 6 year old how other adults do. I think it's because my social skills were developed as an adult for an adult audience.

Eh, I'm a mess today people.

Edit: Maybe NT empathy is an agreed upon contract. We'll empathise with you as long as it involves this and you do this and react in this way.

Maybe their theory of mind is like rules to a particular game that they're all aware of but we have to guess what these rules are as a part of the game.

...someone just lobotomise me, now.


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22 Nov 2011, 10:05 am

MrXxx wrote:
I think the OP is suffering from the same thing most of us go through early on.

I don't believe it's that we "get" anything better than NT's, except for one thing.

What life is like with Autism. We all "get" that, and NT's do not. Everything in here that seems to reflect that we get a lot that NT's don't, is rooted in the Autie experience. Of course it looks like we get it all. Because "it" is all from our perspective. Something that NT's will never really "get."


Very insightful, great post!



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22 Nov 2011, 4:35 pm

This may be true. I'm still trying to figure a lot out, so I don't know yet. I'll have to see how my opinion develops over time. I appreciate everyone's insights, though. It's good to have these perspectives. Thanks!

Asperger's, if I really do have it, answers so many questions for me. But it raises all sorts of new ones, too. This is proving to be quite an experience. I'm really learning a lot.


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