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gramirez
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23 Nov 2011, 1:58 pm

Tambourine-Man wrote:
Anyone who is outright opposed to stimulant therapy is probably fairly uniformed. There are risks involved, but they are outweighed by many OTC medications we take at the drop of a hat.

That's a great way to put it, I agree 100%.


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mar00
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23 Nov 2011, 2:24 pm

Tambourine-Man wrote:
Anyone who is outright opposed to stimulant therapy is probably fairly uniformed. There are risks involved, but they are outweighed by many OTC medications we take at the drop of a hat.

Thanks, that makes sense. There is a lot written about this stuff and being paranoid as I am I probably give into that a bit too much.



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23 Nov 2011, 3:27 pm

Burnbridge wrote:
Ugh, I made a very long and thorough reply to this last night that didn't survive my lousy web connection. Let me try again in smaller bursts. <...>

Thanks for a comprehensive reply, Burnbridge.
I've been taking 25mcg daily and consuming some cow milk yogurt once a week though I should probably get more serious and get my levels tested because otherwise my diet is vegan with occasional deviations. That is true it took me a lot of time and reading to go as much vegan as I am now but there's of course room for improvement. For instance being able to afford stuff. It is not only B12 that is of concern apparently. I am quite a fan of pills for some reason and am looking for various info on their actual benefits etc. Again, I am quite confused with various conflicting views and there are some wacky *futuristic* theories out there as well.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYlEP9btxE4[/youtube]
But he doesn't look so good? Anyway I thought it might be interesting.

So as I understand with stimulants the key is building it up slowly and reasonable use. All in all it is very easy to start abusing such *power*. But then again I need something reliable to use it daily preferably at least until the age of 40.. I gues I'll just have to give it a go.

Yes I very much agree that caffeine may distort many effects of noots and now it became popular to stuff ginseng for energy which I find quite funny. Fortunately I do not tolerate caffeine and it seems that I am much better without any at all. I took Cavinton for a few years actually without much success despite it being so praised. The best seeming effect I got was aniracetam+alpha gpc. Anyway most of my experiments were unsuccessful due to a variety of reasons.



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23 Nov 2011, 6:36 pm

Dexedrine shortages have forced me to switch to Desoxyn. This is a very difficult script to obtain, as there is an enormous stigma attached to it. I've only taken 10mg so far, but am charting my progress in this thread on the ADHD forum...

http://addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113205


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dr01dguy
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23 Nov 2011, 11:52 pm

> Tolerance builds very quickly with stimulants, resulting in a needed increase of dosage over time,

Sort of, but that doesn't tell the whole story.

Your body does build up tolerance to them. In fact, it builds up tolerance to them while they're in your bloodstream. HOWEVER, that tolerance goes away almost as quickly as it appears, as long as you're getting enough sleep. If you sleep for 8-10 hours every night, you can completely soak yourself with amphetamines the other 14-16 hours of the day without ever seeing any real tolerance to them. On the other hand, if you try using amphetamines to go for 36+ hours without sleeping, you'll build up tolerance with breathtaking speed. However, even THAT tolerance will go away after 12-16 hours of sleep, followed by another day or two with 10-12 hours of sleep.

This tolerance is why Concerta works so much better than any other methylphenidate-based product -- it ensures that the amount of methylphenidate in your bloodstream doesn't just remain stable... it slowly INCREASES all day. That's why when the day's Concerta starts to run out, it doesn't take much IR methylphenidate to kick you back into the effective zone for a few more hours. The level in your blood is still pretty high when you feel it fading, you've just built up a temporary tolerance to it. 2.5-5mg IR is plenty to nudge you back up into the effective zone for one last round of productivity before going to bed.

It's also why Vyvanse ends up being such a huge disappointment for everyone. It ramps up for a few hours and works well, then starts dropping off in bulk. As you're peaking, the day's tolerance is slowly building up. When the amount of metabolized dextroamphetamine in your bloodstream falls below the therapeutic level, you go from "fading" to "crash", and feel like you could curl up in the middle of a sidewalk and sleep for 12 hours. That's why so many Vyvanse users end up crashing and burning in the early evening unless they can augment it with IR dexedrine, and why it takes a fairly large amount of it to pull you back up to productive levels and do the same job that a relatively small amount of methylphenidate can do with Concerta.

My ultimate fantasy: an amphetamine-based Concerta variant (Encöre?) that starts with IR dextroamphetamine, coupled with Concerta's osmotic-pump mechanism and a good, healthy supply of lisdesoxyephedrine gel (hypothetical lysinated methamphetamine similar to the lysinated dextroamphetamine used in Vyvanse) to keep it slowly building up and working effectively all day long. Vyvanse's problem isn't the lysination (as long as you augment it with non-lysinated dextroamphetamine at the start of the day to get around the fact that it would otherwise take hours instead of minutes to start working), it's the fact that it basically has the same pharmacokinetics as Focalin LA and classic Dexedrine spansules -- a slope, a peak, and a long drooping slump downhill that ends with a nasty crash.



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24 Nov 2011, 1:08 am

Tambourine-Man wrote:
mar00 wrote:
Raw vegan diet + exercise + catnaps :D
You might want to google smart drugs forums and ask for help they are really enthusiastic sometimes maybe you are lucky to find some aspie who's obsessed over them.


That's me! Psychostimulants are my current obsession! I'm expecting some vintage advertisements for Dexedrine, Dexamyl, and Desoxyn in the mail today.

I've researched stimulants obesessively for quite some time, and have been prescribed nearly all available brands and formulations.

I recommend them in this order...

1. Dexedrine IR
2. Adderall IR (Sandoz brand if possible)
3. Dexedrine Spansules (GSK brand if possible)
5. Adderall XR
6. Focalin
7. Ritalin (Ciba)

I greatly prefer amphetamine products to methylphenidate products. I know more about these drugs than most pharmacists, so don't hesitate to ask me any questions.
I agree with getting Adderall IR by Sandoz. That's what I take in the afternoon. However, Sandoz's formulation is nothing compared to when Shire formulated the drug themselves. Dexedrine lasts as short as Adderall, and the Spansules only a few hours more. I'm waiting for a company like Shire or Noven to create an amphetamine ATS (amphetamine transdermal system) similar to Daytrana. Apply in the morning, leave on all day for 24-hour coverage. Until then, you're probably better off drinking coffee.



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24 Nov 2011, 1:14 am

Tambourine-Man wrote:
Dexedrine shortages have forced me to switch to Desoxyn. This is a very difficult script to obtain, as there is an enormous stigma attached to it. I've only taken 10mg so far, but am charting my progress in this thread on the ADHD forum...

http://addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113205
I filled one script for Desoxyn. The only script I will ever fill for that stuff. 10mg of meth is extremely strong. I was so slow on it. Life itself was going in slow-motion. It was weird... all I did for a month was was research other stimulants so I could get off that one.



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25 Nov 2011, 5:01 pm

SyphonFilter wrote:
Tambourine-Man wrote:
Dexedrine shortages have forced me to switch to Desoxyn. This is a very difficult script to obtain, as there is an enormous stigma attached to it. I've only taken 10mg so far, but am charting my progress in this thread on the ADHD forum...

http://addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113205
I filled one script for Desoxyn. The only script I will ever fill for that stuff. 10mg of meth is extremely strong. I was so slow on it. Life itself was going in slow-motion. It was weird... all I did for a month was was research other stimulants so I could get off that one.


I don't find it to be terribly strong. It is very subtle and relaxing. It is too early to offer an absolute opinion, but I will say that so far, Desoxyn is a winner. It has a longer duration and absolutely no side-effects. Ironically enough, this most potent of stimulants is the least speedy of any I have taken, and I've taken them all.

My family thinks I have improved on the Desoxyn. I suppose time will tell.


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25 Nov 2011, 5:03 pm

dr01dguy wrote:
>
My ultimate fantasy: an amphetamine-based Concerta variant (Encöre?) that starts with IR dextroamphetamine, coupled with Concerta's osmotic-pump mechanism and a good, healthy supply of lisdesoxyephedrine gel (hypothetical lysinated methamphetamine similar to the lysinated dextroamphetamine used in Vyvanse) to keep it slowly building up and working effectively all day long. Vyvanse's problem isn't the lysination (as long as you augment it with non-lysinated dextroamphetamine at the start of the day to get around the fact that it would otherwise take hours instead of minutes to start working), it's the fact that it basically has the same pharmacokinetics as Focalin LA and classic Dexedrine spansules -- a slope, a peak, and a long drooping slump downhill that ends with a nasty crash.


Sounds perfect!


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25 Nov 2011, 6:33 pm

Tambourine-Man wrote:
dr01dguy wrote:
>
My ultimate fantasy: an amphetamine-based Concerta variant (Encöre?) that starts with IR dextroamphetamine, coupled with Concerta's osmotic-pump mechanism and a good, healthy supply of lisdesoxyephedrine gel (hypothetical lysinated methamphetamine similar to the lysinated dextroamphetamine used in Vyvanse) to keep it slowly building up and working effectively all day long. Vyvanse's problem isn't the lysination (as long as you augment it with non-lysinated dextroamphetamine at the start of the day to get around the fact that it would otherwise take hours instead of minutes to start working), it's the fact that it basically has the same pharmacokinetics as Focalin LA and classic Dexedrine spansules -- a slope, a peak, and a long drooping slump downhill that ends with a nasty crash.


Sounds perfect!
I'd go for that as well.



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26 Nov 2011, 2:42 am

Hmmm... I discovered a possible complication this afternoon.

While reading up about how Vyvanse works, I saw that the enzymes it depends upon to cleave away the lysine are in the small intestine. I'm not sure how far into the digestive tract Concerta keeps pumping out, but I'm pretty sure it's beyond the upper half of the small intestine, and might actually extend into the large intestine. It might be necessary to make the gel either a mixture of lisdesoxyephedrine and straight-up desoxyephedrine (accepting the fact that most of the lis- form would be wasted at the tail end), or just skip the lysification entirely (and risk the DEA's wrath).

Also, given what Tambourine-Man has said (here, and at addforums.com) about it, I'm having second thoughts about the compatibility of dex- and dexmeth- back-to-back. It might be necessary to just make it ~30mg of straight desoxyephedrine (7-10 IR, remainder as osmotic gel, with 3-5mg wasted at the tail end as filler).

On the (slightly tragic) flip side, they probably wouldn't have to care about making it "abuse-proof", because if each tablet cost $6-7 (like Concerta does) and contained just ~30mg of desoxyephedrine, it would probably be too expensive for drug dealers to even bother trying to extract the drug inside for recreational purposes.



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26 Nov 2011, 9:58 am

dr01dguy wrote:
Hmmm... I discovered a possible complication this afternoon.

While reading up about how Vyvanse works, I saw that the enzymes it depends upon to cleave away the lysine are in the small intestine. I'm not sure how far into the digestive tract Concerta keeps pumping out, but I'm pretty sure it's beyond the upper half of the small intestine, and might actually extend into the large intestine. It might be necessary to make the gel either a mixture of lisdesoxyephedrine and straight-up desoxyephedrine (accepting the fact that most of the lis- form would be wasted at the tail end), or just skip the lysification entirely (and risk the DEA's wrath).

Also, given what Tambourine-Man has said (here, and at addforums.com) about it, I'm having second thoughts about the compatibility of dex- and dexmeth- back-to-back. It might be necessary to just make it ~30mg of straight desoxyephedrine (7-10 IR, remainder as osmotic gel, with 3-5mg wasted at the tail end as filler).

On the (slightly tragic) flip side, they probably wouldn't have to care about making it "abuse-proof", because if each tablet cost $6-7 (like Concerta does) and contained just ~30mg of desoxyephedrine, it would probably be too expensive for drug dealers to even bother trying to extract the drug inside for recreational purposes.


I think the whole Vyvanse system is inherrently faulty. However, it would likely work better with Desoxyn attached to lysine for a variety of reasons.

I don't think dex and meth are incompatible by any means. Dex has a stronger initial kick, which would start your pill off right. Meth would keep it smooth, consistent, and long lasting.


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