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HerrGrimm
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26 Nov 2011, 6:27 pm

LKL wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I think it's probably real, but who knows. I like your spirit. Question everything, take nothing as gospel. There have been conspiracies just as grand.

source, please?
Keep in mind that this supposed 'conspiracy' would involve literally millions of researchers, patients, public health officials, doctors, etc, any of whom could win a nobel for proving the current theory wrong.


Don't bother. He is an Alex Jones fan.



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26 Nov 2011, 6:32 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
LKL wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I think it's probably real, but who knows. I like your spirit. Question everything, take nothing as gospel. There have been conspiracies just as grand.
source, please? Keep in mind that this supposed 'conspiracy' would involve literally millions of researchers, patients, public health officials, doctors, etc, any of whom could win a Nobel for proving the current theory wrong.
Don't bother. He is an Alex Jones fan.

That explains a lot.


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26 Nov 2011, 6:34 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2NENULrxK6c[/youtube]


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HerrGrimm
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26 Nov 2011, 6:37 pm

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Unfortunately, my message was not clear. Unlike when I originally posted here, I have decided to not waste (or waste little) time debating Holocaust deniers, anti-vaccine advocates, or extreme conspiracy theorists, amongst others. I was hoping people would drop it when I posted. I am sorry for not making it obvious enough.



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26 Nov 2011, 6:49 pm

LKL wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I think it's probably real, but who knows. I like your spirit. Question everything, take nothing as gospel. There have been conspiracies just as grand.

source, please?
Keep in mind that this supposed 'conspiracy' would involve literally millions of researchers, patients, public health officials, doctors, etc, any of whom could win a nobel for proving the current theory wrong.


Exactly. We're not talking about Watergate, or (maybe) the Kennedy Assassination here, where a small, tight cabal would try to keep things under wraps.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



factotum666
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27 Nov 2011, 3:39 am

Robdemanc wrote:
Oodain wrote:
MasterJedi wrote:
go shoot up with dirty needles and have lots of unprotected sex and come back and tell us.


for once i wholeheatedly agree with a "dirty" solution.
to think anyone in this day and age are so will fully ignorant as to try to deny HIV.

we might not know everything about it but it is most cetainly real,


I never said I was denying it. I said I had seen a film that questioned it and I'd never heard of that before. I did ask in my first post if I was being gulible by considering what they were saying.

I can see it provokes much emotional responses in people and am obviously stupid to think that a debate on this issue could be had.


If you were serious about questioning this, you would first have done some basic research on the topic and found out the nature of the disease, what progress has been made, the fact that a cure may be at hand, the fact that scientists have a pretty good idea of how HIV works to invade cells, why about 1% of people are naturally immune to the disease, and how that is leading to a cure.

I would suggest that you do some self reflection on why you chose to simply post first and not invest any time or effort in the above research. Do you really want to get a reputation as a simpleton troll?


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LKL
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27 Nov 2011, 3:57 am

"get"?



Robdemanc
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27 Nov 2011, 4:38 am

factotum666 wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
Oodain wrote:
MasterJedi wrote:
go shoot up with dirty needles and have lots of unprotected sex and come back and tell us.


for once i wholeheatedly agree with a "dirty" solution.
to think anyone in this day and age are so will fully ignorant as to try to deny HIV.

we might not know everything about it but it is most cetainly real,


I never said I was denying it. I said I had seen a film that questioned it and I'd never heard of that before. I did ask in my first post if I was being gulible by considering what they were saying.

I can see it provokes much emotional responses in people and am obviously stupid to think that a debate on this issue could be had.


If you were serious about questioning this, you would first have done some basic research on the topic and found out the nature of the disease, what progress has been made, the fact that a cure may be at hand, the fact that scientists have a pretty good idea of how HIV works to invade cells, why about 1% of people are naturally immune to the disease, and how that is leading to a cure.

I would suggest that you do some self reflection on why you chose to simply post first and not invest any time or effort in the above research. Do you really want to get a reputation as a simpleton troll?


I posted because I wanted to see what people say. I have since posted explaining that I have looked further into it and found the scientific consensus to be valid and yes I was stupid for being taken in while watching the film that questioned this. But in this day when it seems multi national orgs are running the world it did cross my mind that it could be a scam by the drug firms. I have slapped myself, and been slapped by others on here, back into the real world.



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27 Nov 2011, 6:03 pm

Wow, that's an unusually humble admission. Good for you. :)



Robdemanc
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28 Nov 2011, 4:22 am

LKL wrote:
Wow, that's an unusually humble admission. Good for you. :)


I am presuming you refer to my last post? I don't think theres anything wrong with admitting you have been wrong or mistaken. I have always been very scientific and appreciate the scientific method. But I have always been cynical and skeptical too. The film I saw was very well made and is perhaps the only documentary film I have come across about HIV/AIDS. So seeing it and also seeing a report on Russia Today which indicated there is disagreement within the scientific community about whether HIV is the cause of AIDS sparked my head, put this together with my cynicism about multi nationals and our governments and I was easily duped for a short time by the film "House of Numbers" which hinted that it was a scam.

In light of the banking crisis, the questionable wars, and in Britain our politicians have been shown to be untrustworthy with public money......it is a wonder anyone believes anything they tell us anymore...



factotum666
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28 Nov 2011, 10:52 am

Robdemanc wrote:
LKL wrote:
Wow, that's an unusually humble admission. Good for you. :)


I am presuming you refer to my last post? I don't think theres anything wrong with admitting you have been wrong or mistaken. I have always been very scientific and appreciate the scientific method. But I have always been cynical and skeptical too. The film I saw was very well made and is perhaps the only documentary film I have come across about HIV/AIDS. So seeing it and also seeing a report on Russia Today which indicated there is disagreement within the scientific community about whether HIV is the cause of AIDS sparked my head, put this together with my cynicism about multi nationals and our governments and I was easily duped for a short time by the film "House of Numbers" which hinted that it was a scam.

In light of the banking crisis, the questionable wars, and in Britain our politicians have been to be untrustworthy with public money......it is a wonder anyone believes anything they tell us anymore...


Science is unique among all other human endeavors, in many ways. It deviates considerably from top down structures, and the findings of scientists are continuously checked against the physical world. There is little room for the lying and deceit that goes on in other areas of human work. For a good example of this you may wish to do research on the internet on the topic of Vaccines causing autism, and the now very discredited doctor who did the original research. You may also wish to examine the topic of global warming.

A major problem is that people in other areas, like politics and business, are aware that the way to success is to suck the privates of the person ahead of you on the food chain, and to lie a lot, so they assume that this applies to science also. They are not aware of peer review and the need for any claims to be actual duplicated by other scientists who are only to happy falsify new findings.

On a side note, some of those in business and politics think that ass licking applies to engineering and that if you lie and flatter your superior, then a poorly build structure will still survive an earthquake, or a poorly drilled will will withstand pressure. Of course they do not.

As to russia Today. Think National enquirer. The best way to think of that publication is, to quote Mary McCarthy about Lillian Hellman: "Every word she says is a lie, Including the words 'and' and 'the'


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28 Nov 2011, 1:48 pm

factotum666 wrote:
Robdemanc wrote:
LKL wrote:
Wow, that's an unusually humble admission. Good for you. :)


I am presuming you refer to my last post? I don't think theres anything wrong with admitting you have been wrong or mistaken. I have always been very scientific and appreciate the scientific method. But I have always been cynical and skeptical too. The film I saw was very well made and is perhaps the only documentary film I have come across about HIV/AIDS. So seeing it and also seeing a report on Russia Today which indicated there is disagreement within the scientific community about whether HIV is the cause of AIDS sparked my head, put this together with my cynicism about multi nationals and our governments and I was easily duped for a short time by the film "House of Numbers" which hinted that it was a scam.

In light of the banking crisis, the questionable wars, and in Britain our politicians have been to be untrustworthy with public money......it is a wonder anyone believes anything they tell us anymore...


Science is unique among all other human endeavors, in many ways. It deviates considerably from top down structures, and the findings of scientists are continuously checked against the physical world. There is little room for the lying and deceit that goes on in other areas of human work. For a good example of this you may wish to do research on the internet on the topic of Vaccines causing autism, and the now very discredited doctor who did the original research. You may also wish to examine the topic of global warming.

A major problem is that people in other areas, like politics and business, are aware that the way to success is to suck the privates of the person ahead of you on the food chain, and to lie a lot, so they assume that this applies to science also. They are not aware of peer review and the need for any claims to be actual duplicated by other scientists who are only to happy falsify new findings.

On a side note, some of those in business and politics think that ass licking applies to engineering and that if you lie and flatter your superior, then a poorly build structure will still survive an earthquake, or a poorly drilled will will withstand pressure. Of course they do not.

As to russia Today. Think National enquirer. The best way to think of that publication is, to quote Mary McCarthy about Lillian Hellman: "Every word she says is a lie, Including the words 'and' and 'the'


Yeah I appreciate your point on science and how that discipline is the most scrutinised of all. But let us not forget that business runs the world, not science. I have worked in science and have been appauled that in corporations the business side at times try to dictate what mathematicians report or what researchers say. I have known some people to be close to tears being bullied by executives who work on the business side of companies. And I think people should remain aware of how much money HIV makes for the business world.



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28 Nov 2011, 2:20 pm

LOL NO.



factotum666
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28 Nov 2011, 2:23 pm

And occasionally, as with tobacco, business can find a scientist to sell his soul. It is rare, and the scientist knows that he has pretty much made a deal with the devil, and will never get respect in the world of science again More so in todays highly visible interconnected world, which is why so few scientists succumb to that trap. Rather they are reduced to tears.

I am surprised that, knowing what you did, that you gave more than a passing thought to that video without doing some research on your own. There is a reason that almost scientists think of conspiracy nuts as ... well ... nuts


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28 Nov 2011, 3:04 pm

On HIV, there are some troubling issues.

First, it's origin. There is evidence to support the claim that it was engineered and deliberately released into the gay male population.

Second, fatality of the disease. Most all treatments for HIV involve immune-suppression medications. This means you are open to infections that can kill you as you have a compromised immune system. Critics have pointed out that nobody dies of HIV...they die of HIV complications. When someone dies of any number of "complications," they died of something that is a known consequence/risk of taking immune-suppressing drugs. So, did they die because of HIV or the side effects of the meds the doctors put them on?

I don't doubt it is a real disease, though.