Forgiving and not really meaning it - an NT thing?

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EXACTLY. What's the point? I do agree though, that apologizing for something you did intentionally is not revealing weakness as much as apologizing for something you did deliberately. For unintentional blunders, most of the time us Aspies aren't even aware they occurred - hence their unintentional nature. So the way I see it, if you screw up in your words or actions and upset someone, any apology will come about in one of two ways:

1) Somebody bluntly brings the screw-up to your attention, and they are clearly upset and agitated. So you apologize that you had no idea it upset them and wouldn't have done/said that if you knew it did. Weakness openly admitted.

2) You suspect that you have offended someone by what you suspect was a screw-up - again, the Aspie weakness being that you can't tell for sure. So you apologize to the presumably affected person. The other person's response will either be forgiveness (most likely) or they'll say that you misjudged the situation and they're not offended. Again, weakness openly admitted.

The thing is, NTs are able to be socially proactive and avoid these blunders in the first place, and not get into reactive mode like we do.

Apologise if you're ACTUALLY SORRY. Otherwise it's consent to be bullied.

If I do something wrong, I'm genuinely sorry. Then I apologize, unless I think either it isn't possible or doing so could actually make things worse somehow.

I find that only some people will use an apology as an excuse to jump on somebody. They look for you to feel bad, then they make it worse. I've had that happen often enough. And I'll agree that the uncertainty surrounding whether or not I've done something wrong or hurt someone can really complicate things and lead me into trouble with someone looking to gain power by making me feel bad. But I don't think most people are like that. An apology is really intended to let someone know you care about them. I think most NTs know that, which is why they apologize for things. After all, you can be sorry you hurt someone without bothering to say so. You only say it so the other person can hear it.

Not all cultures around the world bother with apologies, though. In some places, it's assumed that you did something unintentionally, or else you would either follow it up with crowing about it or give a deliberately sarcastic apology to help rub it in. So, real apologies are considered unnecessary. I think there are just as many insincere apologies in our culture as insincere expressions of forgiveness.

As for forgiveness, I think lots of people haven't bothered to define what that is for them, so how can they really do it sincerely? Also, accepting an apology does not magically make hurt feelings go away. Sometimes people need time, but they want to accept an apology to let the other person know that's the direction they're trying to go. Accepting an apology is a way of trying to relieve someone's distress over accidentally having caused pain or difficulty. When people know others care about them, they get the urge to express caring in return. My problem with it is usually that I have to get that reassuring sentiment intellectually, because I don't absorb it as easily as an NT might. So, I can go on being quite distressed, as my urge to apologize continues. I also can't always sense someone's caring from their apology, so I can't always tell when their apology is sincere. Sometimes their apology is actually kind of scary for me, and I can't tell if they really mean it or just want me to shut up and stop bothering them with my upset over whatever they did to me.

Or when it will get you out of trouble, legal or otherwise.

Yes, lie whenever it will work.

Wait. I'm not sure about that one.

If Jesus had taken it back maybe NTs wouldn't even aspire to be better? We need autistic heroes to create stories for the people who need stories.

No they aren't.

What you basically said was (I'm paraphrasing here), "[sic] Apologies are for when it appears you did something wrong.", the key word being "appears". If you didn't mean it, but it's possible it looks like you did, then you apologize to communicate that you didn't do it on purpose. Also, in some cases, you do it to show you care about the other person's feelings, even if you did it on purpose.

But isn't it better to not do it again and let that be the apology? Apologies are annoying when people keep doing annoying stuff and then apologizing for it. So what if it wasn't intentional? It's still annoying.

You're right. Autistic instincts on stuff like this are perfect. So don't worry about it. If you start playing their game you'll be the dupe living by someone else's rules.

For MOST people, it's better to apologize (To say "I didn't mean it") and not do it again. But, the people who keep repeating the same annoying thing have their own issues and insincere or meaningless apologies are annoying, yes.

One apology is good.

I think that it's more of a human thing than an NT thing. I've held a few grudges in the past.

It's a possibility to forgive and then realize you are still mad about it.

I was taught as a child you always apologize when you accidentally offend someone or upset someone but then I learned as an adult apologies are useless if people arne't going to accept the apology and after being told I wasn't sorry, forget it. Why was I taught to apologize like this if people don't like it? I also think it's wrong to make kids apologize because making them do it, they are most likely not sorry and they are just saying it because they were told to do it. Then it teaches them to do fake apologies because they were taught it's the polite thing to do. I can't even tell if my apologies are fake or real. I had them drilled into me and as a child I didn't even understand why I was saying sorry and to me it was just a word and meant nothing. Then I learned it's something you say to be nice and only nice people say it when they do something wrong and bad people never say their sorry. But then it always annoyed people when I was saying sorry all the time, even for accidents I would do or mistakes. So I cut back on it and now it seems like I rarely do it. How do you apologize without someone thinking it's BS? I think a child should be taught when they should apologize but forcing them just teaches them to do fake ones. My husband told me they were actually teaching me to apologize and mean it but that is not what I learned as a child. I learned you just say sorry whenever you get someone mad or upset or have an accident with them. Then people telling me in high school I am not sorry when I say it just made me not want to apologize at all. Maybe what the grown ups were teaching me about saying sorry was the way NTs kids would learn it and learn you say it and mean it but that is not what I learned. So yeah I'm an as*hole now because I rarely apologize since I don't know if it be a BS apology or a real one and also the fact I have no idea if the person would accept the apology and move on and leave me alone or not hold it against me anymore or if the person get over it and move on. Sometimes I still say sorry because it's a habit from my childhood.

Anyone ever been told that the reason why you aren't bullied anymore is because you have better social skills now or because you have learned to adapt to the world, etc?

In high school I was telling my shrink how kids don't bully me in high school nor did they in middle school and he told me that was because my social skills had improved. But I supposed they improved over the summer in 1998 when we moved because I went from being a bully victim to not being bullied anymore the following year? Uh no I thought that was because we moved to a small town so kids left me alone and small town schools are usually better than large schools. In fact I hear people are shunned in small towns when they pick on someone different and I was in special ed so of course I'd be left alone or else they would look bad. That's my speculation of why I didn't get bullied.

I don't think my shrink was implying it was my fault I got picked on in elementary school. I think he was just explaining why I didn't face bullying in high school.

I really do think getting bullied less has a lot to do with being around people who are less inclined to do it. As an adult, I've seen that adults can still be very nasty bullies - worse than kids, because they're more experienced (and so better at it) and because there's less to stop them unless they actually break a law. True, kids do things that would be illegal for adults, such as punching other kids, and they got away with such things fairly easily when I was in school, because they weren't seen. Adults just said kids will be kids and that they couldn't do anything about what they didn't see. Victims of bullying were supposed to toughen up. But adults can be more vicious without physical violence, right in front of authority, and adult victims are expected to be even more tough about it for having grown up. So, if you're not bullied later on in life, it's because you're around better people, whether by accident or by choice.

Getting back to the apology issue, as someone who doesn't read others well, if someone apologizes to me, it helps - unless I actually have some reason to disbelieve it. So, I figure I should extend the same courtesy to others, as a supplement to trying not to repeat the offense. I have a very strong sense of moral obligation to, whenever possible, make things right with someone if I've done them some kind of wrong. If apologizing helps make things right, I'm going to try to do it. If the apology isn't accepted, at least I've done my part. Their reaction is their responsibility, not mine.

An Apology is simply a verbal display of empathy (in the ToM model) with one slight distinction. In an apology, you verbally acknowledge and place yourself in someone-elses position, recognizing their thoughts and feelings outside your own, and in doing so it is an admission of wrong doing on your part.

The important thing to remember in regards to an apology is: Whether you get one or NOT, whether it is sincere or NOT; don't let it hinder your personal development.


TheSunAlsoRises

Sorry is the magic word. In a lot of human interaction, a verbal apology is the only way to make things right with another person. If it is or at least sounds sincere, so much the better.

But that should be the end of it and bringing it up again later is seriously bad form.

Unless there is the annoying repetition of the behaviour or act that made the apology necessary in the first place. That is a common feature of long term relationships. People who have been married for a while will recognise the conversation that goes roughly like this :"Don't apologise. I'm not interested in your apology. Just DON'T DO IT AGAIN!!"

But that's really not a likely scenario in casual acquaintances or even friendships. An apology is an apology, and then one should move on. Some people can't, it would appear, but I don't think that's anything to do with NT or ASD.