Abused by those with BPD

Page 8 of 10 [ 159 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Next

Joined: 24 Apr 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 277

28 Dec 2011, 8:28 pm

I'm not trying to undermine people with BPD or bipolar (most of who seem to be very successful) but I do believe they are attracted to aspies for some reason. Maybe its because we can have a sort of blind spot to their more extreme behavior. It's pretty fascinating. What if most of the problems I encounter are not poor social skills but simply a result of someone who is feeling depressed or paranoid?

finallyFoundOutWhy
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 51

29 Dec 2011, 10:46 am

I talked to my cohabitant fiance about this thread and the subject of whether BPD people are attracted to people with Asperger's and seek them out.

My fiance is a counsellor.

Her response before I even finished describing the thread (i can be long-winded and detail oriented sometimes... )

"Of course they do!"

She said that the debate on whether people with BPD are predatory toward aspies is dependent on the definition of predatory. If you consider a narcissist who actively looks for someone to aggrandise them and make them feel better about themselves predatory, then someone with BPD should be considered predatory. They have a targets they are looking for and will comb through people until they find one. They will discard people who push back.

She did say that if a person has BPD and is actively working on controlling it, and is actively self-aware of their behaviours, those folks might not act in a predatory fashion. She said that in 20 some years she had encountered exactly ONE person with BPD that was diagnosed AND working on controlling it. This person had been horribly abused over her childhood and had identified that her own mother was BPD and this young woman was actively fighting her own BPD as a way of fighting her mother - hence the motivation to try to control her BPD.

She said that BPD people would actively seek people to control and manipulate. That aspies are easier to control and manipulate for reasons we are all aware of. That people with BPD would gravitate toward victims of abuse in the same manner for the same reasons.

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,469
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

29 Dec 2011, 11:06 am

finallyFoundOutWhy wrote:

)

"Of course they do!"

She said that the debate on whether people with BPD are predatory toward aspies is dependent on the definition of predatory. If you consider a narcissist who actively looks for someone to aggrandise them and make them feel better about themselves predatory, then someone with BPD should be considered predatory. They have a targets they are looking for and will comb through people until they find one. They will discard people who push back.

She did say that if a person has BPD and is actively working on controlling it, and is actively self-aware of their behaviours, those folks might not act in a predatory fashion. She said that in 20 some years she had encountered exactly ONE person with BPD that was diagnosed AND working on controlling it. This person had been horribly abused over her childhood and had identified that her own mother was BPD and this young woman was actively fighting her own BPD as a way of fighting her mother - hence the motivation to try to control her BPD.

She said that BPD people would actively seek people to control and manipulate. That aspies are easier to control and manipulate for reasons we are all aware of. That people with BPD would gravitate toward victims of abuse in the same manner for the same reasons.

Well that seems kind of ignorant actually, because first off not everyone with BPD would be a Narcissist, Narcissistic PD and Borderline PD are not the same thing.......so to refer to people with BPD as narcissists is inaccurate. Also reading up on the symptoms of BPD paints a bit of a different picture.......it says nothing about intentional manipulation and predatory behavior and talks about how people with BPD feel badly about themselves and experiance love hate relationships with people. So there is no doubt some of the behavior comes off as manipulative but the motivation behind it is not the same as a narcissist.

_________________
We won't go back.

Verdandi
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Dec 2010
Age: 54
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,275
Location: University of California Sunnydale (fictional location - Real location Olympia, WA)

29 Dec 2011, 11:38 am

finallyFoundOutWhy wrote:

She said that BPD people would actively seek people to control and manipulate. That aspies are easier to control and manipulate for reasons we are all aware of. That people with BPD would gravitate toward victims of abuse in the same manner for the same reasons.

Hmm, I guess I could link this again:

http://www.psybc.com/pdfs/library/What_ ... Anyway.pdf

finallyFoundOutWhy
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 51

29 Dec 2011, 11:54 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

you are misrepresenting what was said

the reference to Narcissism was a comparison

two sets of behaviours - if one is considered predatory then the other should be considered predatory.

also, the question of predation was referenced "dependent on the definition of predatory"

----

your defensiveness is offputting

fraac
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,865

29 Dec 2011, 12:19 pm

Any study of borderlines uses the worst examples of them and I think misrepresents the condition because of that. Firstly, their style is reactive and defensive, it depends on sensitivity to be successful, so if you can identify a borderline they're going to be messing up the one thing they have to do well to get anywhere.

It's not the same as narcissistic manipulation. Different style.

Sweetleaf
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,469
Location: Somewhere in Colorado

29 Dec 2011, 12:21 pm

finallyFoundOutWhy wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

A professional counseler should know its not appropriate to make those sorts of comparisons in order to describe people with a particular disorder in a stigmatizing way. Its just the sort of thing my abnormal psychology professor was criticizing during one lecture...apparently BPD is one of the worst things someone can be diagnosed with because of all the stigma, which in turn makes it hard for them to find treatment due to the intolarance they are likely to face even from mental health professionals.

Predatory indicates an individual is intentionally looking for people to manipulate and potentially cause harm to in an abusive manner, which I would argue does not describe people with BPD in general....if that is not what you where trying to indicate please explain.

I have good reason to be defensive about these kinds of things, having experianced lots of ignorance myself, I can't even imagine how much more often it happens to people with BPD.

_________________
We won't go back.

finallyFoundOutWhy
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 51

29 Dec 2011, 12:49 pm

Verdandi wrote:

finallyFoundOutWhy wrote:

Hmm, I guess I could link this again:

[link to PDF in above post]

Verlandi: the last couple of paragraphs are a quality summation of the point of the article you link to:

Quote:

"The question I have been addressing is whether clinicians are justified in taking a pejorative and judgmental stance towards BPD patients. While a violation of norms for relationship might provide an explanation of why clinicians react negatively to BPD patients, it doesn’t provide warrant for sweeping labels of manipulativity or the negative attitudes that are entailed. Such attitudes do not satisfy therapeutic and moral norms that clinicians are expected to follow: namely, that clinicians need to develop empathy for their patients’ suffering and distress. When clinicians view patients’ primary character as morally objectionable, it’s difficult for clinicians to feel empathy and for patients to either receive or elicit it.

Clarity and carefulness in applying the term manipulation will aid clinicians in intercepting negative perceptions, a necessary correlate to being empathetic. BPD patients are suffering and need responses from clinicians that do not exacerbate their distress, and the pervasive attribution of pejorative and blaming manipulativity does not further their healing process."

the point is valid from a pure morals and ethics standpoint.

----

from a real world standpoint, i don't know if it makes much difference. i had a bad experience with a BPD spouse. i understand why she is whacked. The sexual, physical, and emotional violence she had inflicted on her her as a child was enormous and i grieve for her and her experience.

that grief, and my kindness and patience over the 18 years we were together (including dating) does not remove the fact that i was manipulated and abused for that period. it does not forgive the emotional scars, physical scars, or PTSD i suffer as a result of living with someone with BPD.

whether she meant it or not, whether it was planned or not, whether it was malicious or unconscious flailing seeking help or solace - i don't care

she abused and manipulated me for our time together and still abuses and manipulates me, our children, and other people around her. my experience and i have no desire to be around her.

my co-habitant partner (who currently teaches Abnormal Psychology and youth care classes, and is Executive Director of a jurisdiction wide sexual assault services association [multiple member agencies]), who is a counsellor with decades of experience, who worked extensively with abused children for 14 years, and subsequently adults that were falling through the cracks of social services, and worked with those adults in self-esteem building exercises - refuses to work with BPD people. if they show up in her programs she boots them because they destroy the groups she works with with their behaviours and manipulation. the drug addicts and the suicidal types and all the rest she has found she can work with - but not BPD people. again - her experience - again, she understands why they are the way they are, but in a real world setting with limited resources she won't devote the lifetime it would take to try to "fix" the person.

again - someone else's mileage may vary, and people can make all the moral judgements they want about the decisions and comments i make, or that i relate her as making - it doesn't matter - i am relating my/our experiences and am trying to address the original topic of the thread.

the original question on the thread had to do with the interrelationship of aspies and BPD people.

the question of whether we should feel sorry for people with BPD, or be loving and kind to them because they "can't help themselves" or some such, are separate questions from the ones originally posed at the beginning of this thread

finallyFoundOutWhy
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 51

29 Dec 2011, 12:52 pm

fraac wrote:

again - a misrepresentation

the point was about whether someone is engaging in predation, not whether a BPD person is a Narcissist

it was a comparison of whether an observer would consider each predatory, not whether they were the same behaviours

aspi-rant
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 3 Sep 2008
Age: 62
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,448
Location: denmark

29 Dec 2011, 1:12 pm

Quote:

Cluster B Personality Disorders

Here's how to identify certain types of these kinds of women:

The Borderline Personality Disorder woman will have lots of male friends, a few (3 or 4) male friends she considers to be close friends, but these "close" friends will be friend zoned co-dependent types. The Borderline woman will have a boyfriend or ex boyfriend she considers the primary relationship in her life, but it will always be a rocky relationship. He will most likely be depressed. She wil make you feel like you're the king of the world when she first meets you, but this will only last a short period of time before she begins to devalue you. You have a month or 2 to have sex with her good until this happens. DO NOT become one of her few male friends waiting for her to fall in love with you, that will NEVER happen because she hates herself too much to allow real intimacy in her life.

The Histrionic Personality Disorder woman will be lively and charismatic, and like the Borderline woman, she will have lots of mostly male friends. But unlike the Borderline woman, she may have a few lesser attractive male friends. She will flirt, touch, and make you feel like you're the hottest thing around. She is after your attention, and only your attention. The trick to having sex with her is to not seem as if you have surrendered to her charms. The more apathetic you are towards her, the more she wants you. The minute she thinks shes won you over, she will consider you less than dirt. Never tell her you love her unless you want the relationship (I use that term loosely, they will never have a real relationship) to be over with.

The Narcissist woman will seem interested in you, mirror all of your interests, and paint herself out to be everything you want in a woman. For example, if you tell her you're into certain genre of music, she will quickly study that genre and become master at it in her own mind. Narcissist women love becoming getting interested in specific genres because it makes them feel superior. They need to feel better than you at knowing certain things. The minute you claim to know more, she beings resenting you and pushing you away. Like the Histrionic and Borderline women, the Narcissistic Personality Disorder woman wants your attention and will inevitably devalue you and cut you off for no reason. But unlike the Borderline and Histrionic women, they don't care if you leave first. They're narcissist and will not usually fault themselves in any way.

Don't try and figure out whether a woman is Borderline, Histrionic, or Narcissistic. The truth is these disorders often intertwine and it becomes difficult to know which disorder dominates. If you do come across these women, and you will, the best course of action is to run. But if you want to use them in sexual nature, the best way is to hit-and-run. Be perfect when you talk to them, and then disappear for a few days. If you can do this a few times, she will almost always want you. But if you start developing feelings and start trying to figure out her motives, you're going to have months of heartache perhaps. The Cluster B has zero empathy (they fake it well) and are master manipulators, Don't play their game, you will always lose.

-- Collected from a infograph

a clip i stumbled upon some time ago, and found very fitting and interesting in relation to what i had experienced with a BPD partner myself

finallyFoundOutWhy
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 51

29 Dec 2011, 1:16 pm

Verdandi wrote:

The nature of BPD is such that people who encounter someone who does have BPD are likely to have negative, emotionally turbulent experiences. It's not guaranteed, but it's likely. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that, but where does the distinction fall between "this person harmed me" and "a disorder harmed me?"

I concede the above point made earlier in this thread

i have had a bad experience with a person with a person who had BPD

my co-habitant partner has mad MANY bad experiences with people with BPD

perhaps it is the case that the disorder did not harm us, but the persons did. my partner has had one positive experience with a person with BPD in decades of professional work.

the people we have met who happen to have BPD have consistently provided "negative, emotionally turbulent experiences"

we/she have/has generalised from experience. other counsellors my partner has worked with have had similar experience with people who happen to have BPD.

if, after 20 some years of experience, and after discussion with peers, it has been the case that almost everyone you meet who carries a stick and hums "Oh Christmas Tree" hits you with a stick, you are going to be quite wary of people carrying sticks and humming "Oh Christmas Tree"

same thing with people with BPD - fair or unfair

InTheDeepEnd
Sea Gull

Joined: 21 Dec 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 214
Location: Southern United States

29 Dec 2011, 1:17 pm

I think we scared the OP off! To the OP, I understand your fear that everyone you get involved with will have BPD. Perhaps knowing the characteristics of BPD you can behave in ways that will discourage people with BPD before you get close. I would say, start very slow. Maybe tell a guy who is interested in you that you don't do exclusive dating unless you've dated for 2 or 3 months or something. The idea that you aren't exclusive with him would probably bring out the defensive behavior in someone with BPD, or immediately discourage him from pursuing it anymore. I think the most important thing is to take it slow. If you notice anything hinky that reminds you of previous behavior, end it right there, or cool it way off and look for more such behavior. I'm sure you're pretty attuned to it by now. Any man who wants to be with you should treat you with respect and be emotionally mature anyway, and if he can't understand if you want to take things slow, then maybe he's not the right guy, BPD or not.

fraac
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,865

29 Dec 2011, 1:20 pm

finallyFoundOutWhy wrote:

fraac wrote:

Yes. It would be odd to consider bpd manipulation predatory.

marshall
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

29 Dec 2011, 1:29 pm

finallyFoundOutWhy wrote:

Maybe it's just the fact that mutually needy people gravitate towards one another. Someone who is shy and socially awkward is seen as less threatening. Use of words like "predator" and "victim" is a matter pejorative framing. I don't think someone with BPD enters a relationship with the intent of making their partner miserable. I'm guessing they genuinely want the relationship to work out. Of course it's morally wrong for them to start acting controlling and nasty out of insecurity. I don't think it's a calculated plan though. It's just messed up.

finallyFoundOutWhy
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 51

29 Dec 2011, 4:06 pm

marshall wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Thing is abuse is intentional...so if one does not have the intention of hurting others emotionally or physically then I do not see it as abuse, since usually abuse is a power thing. Not saying people with BPD cannot be abusive but I do not think that is a symptom of BPD.

you see, this is where it starts to get itchy for me on a personal level.

i am actually sure my ex didn't start out to abuse and manipulate me, she just wanted to be love - in her endless black hole of need, but she had learned the behaviour well in her own messed up family, and especially from her extremely controlling, manipulative, and abusive mother

manipulation and control were normal modes of operation for her. in fact, when i would tell her what i was going to do and then did it, she would accuse me of subterfuge and manipulation - she honestly never expected anyone to do what they said they would do. therefore it was devious in her mind. or. at least that's what she told me...

but by the end of our marriage, she admitted to actively manipulating me on a constant basis - with intent

she admitted to manipulating me with intent - just not all the time - since our early relationship even while dating

so where do i separate the simple messed up needy behaviour from the tantrums from the BPD emotional instability?

as a previous poster said:

kx250rider wrote:

Abuse on the bystander feels exactly the same as whether coming unintentionally from a BPD person, or a nasty normal person without BPD.

my co-habitant partner says (i called her and asked) that it is pointless to separate the two sets of behaviour from each other in a real life scenario because they are so intertwined and interwoven in any given moment of time (especially someone who is over 30 years old and has well entrenched untreated messed up behaviours) that there is no functional difference to the person on the receiving end

OJani
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Feb 2011
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,505
Location: Hungary

29 Dec 2011, 5:55 pm

aspi-rant wrote:

Quote:

a clip i stumbled upon some time ago, and found very fitting and interesting in relation to what i had experienced with a BPD partner myself

Actually, this makes sense. I'm beginning to wonder if my ex was the same way. From what I've read here on BPD, she probably should have been DX'd with it.

Also, I can relate to what I've read from finallyFoundOutWhy pretty well.

Now I feel more justified than ever that I broke with her. I just don't know what to do to find someone who has no such characteristics and could love me for who I am...

Page 8 of 10 [ 159 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 Next

Jump to:

Abused by those with BPD Post Reply New Topic

Abused by those with BPD