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Fullofstars
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29 Dec 2011, 12:57 pm

oiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii this again?

K. Firsties, it's not up to you to do all of the fretting, pondering, and solving. 'Your girlfriend' is in this thing, too. And since she's *probably* so far from perfect that it's a miracle nobody's tied cement to her feet and thrown her in the river by now, you can back off the self-doubt a little bit. Sometimes 'your girlfriend' is gonna get frustrated. But, wait, what? -she's probably been just as frustrated with every single guy she's ever dated. Cuz here's the kicker: all men are aspies compared to NT females. Your typical guy will storm around for a week barking at everybody around him before somebody takes him aside and tells him he's being an ass, and at that point it may or may not dawn on him that he's having some sort of ****emotion****. On the other hand, your girlfriend's emotions are probably right at the surface ready to spill if ya jostle her just a little bit, and that has to be equally annoying.



ToadOfSteel
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29 Dec 2011, 1:01 pm

fraac wrote:
I've only known beautiful ones. It's one thing Star Trek got really right - beautiful empaths who love geeks.


Those actually exist? :scratch:



fraac
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29 Dec 2011, 1:09 pm

They're about 1% of the population, or maybe a bit less. And they adore anyone who doesn't make them put on an act.



PaintingDiva
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29 Dec 2011, 1:56 pm

I read this story when I was a child, and I wished I had Curdie's hands, from the Princess and the Goblin by George MacDonald. It completely fascinated me, that you could shake hands with someone and know them....this is a little off topic but meh, you all might enjoy it, talking of empaths etc. The Princess has just given Curdie the skill to shake hands and know whether a person is becoming a 'beast'.....

Quote:
"But ma'am," said Curdie, "where is the good of knowing that there is such a difference, if you can never know where it is?"

"Now, Curdie, you must mind exactly what words I use, because although the right words cannot do exactly what I want them to do, the wrong words will certainly do what I do not want them to do. I did not say you can never know. When there is a necessity for your knowing, when you have to do important business with this or that man, there is always a way of knowing enough to keep you from any great blunder. And as you will have important business to do by and by, and that with people of whom you yet know nothing, it will be necessary that you should have some better means than usual of learning the nature of them. "Now listen. Since it is always what they do, whether in their minds or their bodies, that makes men go down to be less than men, that is, beasts, the change always comes first in their hands—and [96] first of all in the inside hands, to which the outside ones are but as the gloves. They do not know it of course; for a beast does not know that he is a beast, and the nearer a man gets to being a beast the less he knows it. Neither can their best friends, or their worst enemies indeed, see any difference in their hands, for they see only the living gloves of them. But there are not a few who feel a vague something repulsive in the hand of a man who is growing a beast.

"Now here is what the rose-fire has done for you: it has made your hands so knowing and wise, it has brought your real hands so near the outside of your flesh gloves, that you will henceforth be able to know at once the hand of a man who is growing into a beast; nay, more—you will at once feel the foot of the beast he is growing, just as if there were no glove made like a man's hand between you and it.

"Hence of course it follows that you will be able often, and with further education in zoology, will be able always to tell, not only when a man is growing a beast, but what beast he is growing to, for you will know the foot—what it is and what beast's it is. According, then, to your knowledge of that beast [97] will be your knowledge of the man you have to do with. Only there is one beautiful and awful thing about it, that if any one gifted with this perception once uses it for his own ends, it is taken from him, and then, not knowing that it is gone, he is in a far worse condition than before, for he trusts to what he has not got."

"How dreadful!" Said Curdie. "I must mind what I am about."

"Yes, indeed, Curdie."

"But may not one sometimes make a mistake without being able to help it?"

"Yes. But so long as he is not after his own ends, he will never make a serious mistake."

"I suppose you want me, ma'am, to warn every one whose hand tells me that he is growing a beast—because, as you say, he does not know it himself."

The princess smiled.

"Much good that would do, Curdie! I don't say there are no cases in which it would be of use, but they are very rare and peculiar cases, and if such come you will know them. To such a person there is in general no insult like the truth. He cannot endure it, not because he is [98] growing a beast, but because he is ceasing to be a man. It is the dying man in him that it makes uncomfortable, and he trots, or creeps, or swims, or flutters out of its way—calls it a foolish feeling, a whim, an old wives' fable, a bit of priests' humbug, an effete superstition, and so on."

"And is there no hope for him? Can nothing be done? It's so awful to think of going down, down, down like that!"

"Even when it's with his own will?"

"That's what seems to me to make it worst of all," said Curdie.

"You are right," answered the princess, nodding her head; "but there is this amount of excuse to make for all such, remember—that they do not know what or how horrid their coming fate is. Many a lady, so delicate and nice that she can bear nothing coarser than the finest linen to touch her body, if she had a mirror that could show her the animal she is growing to, as it lies waiting within the fair skin and the fine linen and the silk and the jewels, would receive a shock that might possibly wake her up."

"Why then, ma'am, shouldn't she have it?"

The princess held her peace.



HopeGrows
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29 Dec 2011, 2:10 pm

This is an extraordinarily difficult issue to address in mixed Aspie/NT relationships. I used to share your belief that issues associated with mind-blindness could be overcome with really good verbal communication, patience, understanding, etc. I honestly don’t believe that any longer – and not believing it makes me sad.

My suggestion is that both partners need to completely swear off any type of manipulation, make a sincere effort to come to the relationship without an agenda, and commit to complete honesty in all communication. I know that’s a tall order, but the problems that I’ve experienced and see consistently recounted here can be largely attributed to manipulative behavior, or an expectation of manipulative behavior - a basic lack of trust. And while manipulative behavior is going to be hard on any relationship, it is particularly devastating to an Aspie/NT relationship (especially if it’s a long distance relationship).

IMO, honest communication is so important because what is said – verbally and in writing – is really the all that each partner can be expected to understand. (Even if you’re local to each other, you can’t expect body language, or vocal tone, or facial expression to be interpreted accurately.) When such a premium is placed on what is said and written, I don’t think there’s a place for sarcasm in a mixed relationship. And that’s kinda tough, because smart women (who seem to be the preferred choice of Aspie men) often use wit and sarcasm in their communication, and their expression of humor. But I think, particularly in the early stages of a relationship, it’s just too easy to misinterpret. So, I think a mutually agreed upon moratorium would probably make the most sense.

Then there’s truthfulness, which is more than just, “Yes, I do think you look fat in those jeans.” (If you’re an NT woman dating an Aspie man, you should understand that your partner is likely going to answer questions like that with truthfully.) However, I’m also talking about truthfully, bravely owning what you’ve done wrong. As in, “I made a mistake and I hurt you. Can you forgive me?” It’s also incredibly important to truthfully take responsibility for your own issues like depression, anxiety, dysfunctional behaviors, etc. A partner can adopt behaviors that may help minimize your symptoms, but they’re your symptoms….at the end of the day, you have to develop the strategy (medication, coping skills, etc.) to manage your anxiety, your depression, your OCD, etc. I’ve had more than one mixed relationship torpedoed by pride or embarrassment because a mistake was made. Instead of owning the mistake and getting past it, the reaction was anger and stubbornness. Anger and stubbornness don’t create intimacy, they create barriers to intimacy. But intimacy and trust and honesty and truthfulness are damn hard to come by in a new relationship – so it really requires a commitment from both partners to get there.

And that’s where the moratorium on manipulative behavior comes in. If either partner isn’t willing to judge their partner’s behavior based on their partner’s behavior (not their last partner’s behavior, or their ex-spouse, or the person who really screwed them over), the relationship will not be worth the heartache it will cause. That means no game-playing, no calculations, no power struggles. That means, “I won’t answer your question truthfully because you’ll use that information against me,” is off the table. Look, if you really believe that your partner would use information against you (to manipulate you), the relationship is already over. If that belief is based on your partner’s behavior, then it should be over. If that belief is based on your messed-up expectations of women due to past poor choices in partners, that’s just good old-fashioned messing with your partner’s head. Either knock it off, or end the relationship – because your partner doesn’t deserve to be messed with.

Saying it’s a challenge to make mixed relationships work in a way that is satisfying and fulfilling to each partner is such an understatement. It takes a lot of work, acceptance of mistakes, the ability to accept/give credit for the effort made (not necessarily the result), an enormous capacity to forgive (each other and one’s self), patience, courage….it takes a lot to make it work. The only reason I think two people would be willing to do that kind of work is if they truly love each other – or believe they will grow to love each other.


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AngelKnight
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29 Dec 2011, 3:01 pm

<< quote from HopeGrows copied >>

I'm writing this down and keeping it somewhere safe. Many thanks to you, HopeGrows.



HighPlateau
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29 Dec 2011, 4:53 pm

Yeah, what AngelKnight said.

Also should be graven in stone for AS/AS relationships, notably the perils of sarcastic wit when words are the only medium (tough on me :( but so well observed and articulated) and the part about mindgames based on messed-up expectations of women due to past poor choices. Ouch and double-ouch.

If I ever enter an AS relationship again and it looks like getting serious, this will be one of the first things I seek to share with the person - complete with annotations, footnotes, cross-references and soul-searchings. Thanks, HopeGrows.



Turbofan77
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27 Jan 2012, 6:30 am

I have two NT friends who are very patient and very understanding and I get them to interpret my boyfriends comments for me. Today was such a day when after an honest statement to my partner he responded with something I did not understand. I told him "I don't understand" and he replied with "Well, neither do I". I was so confused. I asked him again if he could please explain to me what he meant. Later my NT male friend explained to me that the comment I made made my boyfriend feel un-special. How was I supposed to know that if he wouldn't tell me? So now my boyfriend. I think, is ignoring me.



TeaEarlGreyHot
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27 Jan 2012, 2:53 pm

When I don't understand what a partner needs from me, I ask. I hate guessing games and refuse to play them. If they are unwilling to clarify for me, then they don't get it.


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