Male financial abortion - "Legal Paternal Surrender&quo

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Chronos
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10 Jan 2012, 7:56 pm

RikersBeard wrote:
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Man can choose to use a condom. Can choose to get a vasectomy. Can choose not to have sex with a woman that would be willing to go on with pregnancy. A choice not to put their penis in a woman that does not want him to use condoms.


I said they were less desirable for good reason. Abstinence is not a favoured option, don't think I need to explain that one. A vasectomy far from guaranteed reversable, there is a good chance you are giving up the chance to conceive naturally, which is a big deal. In practice that leaves condoms, as mens only worthwhile option, a barrier device that makes sex less pleasurable, woopdedoo. Not to mention unscrupulous women can do this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/artic ... ption.html

@Chronos, all men want is the same options women have. The ability to absolve oneself of all responsibility to the child post conception. It's only fair.


Read the discussion between Orwell and I, if you haven't already.

RikersBeard wrote:
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Contraceptive fails more than 1% of the time

Mostly due to incorrect (deliberate or otherwise) usage I'm willing to bet.


Due to the fact that endocrine systems are not always stable, especially in women who have a predisposition towards various autoimmune disorders that can affect the endocrine system.

There are very few women who "trick" men into getting them pregnant and there are usually indicators that a woman is of such character beforehand. They are usually women with big insecurity issues, and will usually engage in negative behaviors such as clingyness, jealous and accusatory behavior, and might talk about getting married even though he has made it clear that he is not ready for marriage. Most stable women know they are in a compromising position when they are pregnant will be very selective about who they procreate with when it is intentional.

RikersBeard wrote:
Quote:
On top of that, if she were to abstain from sexual relations until she were married, she would likely never find any man who would stick around long enough to marry her, because we live in a society where even most religious christians don't wait until marriage to become sexually active.


Yeah it's a shitty situation, but that does not justify enslavement of men.

And if all women were so chaste the only way men would get sex is if they submitted to marriage or forced it upon women, and in the meantime there would be a lot more men than those in the Love and Dating forum lamenting that it's the evil woman's fault they are 40 year old virgins, and they should be able to get sex without paying for it or making a commitment.

But anyway, in my opinion it is more moral to hold a man responsible for the child he helped to create than be of the mind that the tax payer should instead pay the tab, or that a woman who can't support a child on her own should get an abortion.

RikersBeard wrote:
Quote:
I'm going to be blunt. Your views have demonstrated that you have a complete lack of empathy, and understanding for the struggles women sometimes face in our society, as well as a complete lack of appreciation for all of the effort it takes to raise a child. If you think the work entailed in bringing in a few hundred dollars a month is anywhere near the work that looking after a child entails, you should better educate yourself on the subject of child rearing.


Likewise you have no empathy for men, modern women will never understand what it feels like to have to support or raise a child they did not want. I'm not saying the decision to keep it isn't hard, but it is a choice in the end. Oh and raising a child is not the hardest thing in the world.


I think I've displayed plenty of empathy for men, more so than I feel men on this forum have displayed for women. Women actually do support and raise children then didn't want, in fact they are far more often in the position of raising children they didn't want entirely by themselves than men are because it's a lot easier for the men to run off. Even in countries where there is no child support, you hear of single mothers raising 7 children because her husband decided to run off.

Most of my friends are male and one of them got a woman pregnant when he was 17. He actually wanted to be a father but his relationship with the woman did not work out. The first job he ever had he actually took to pay child support. He was ordered to pay a sum which was greater than the amount he actually made and the mother of his child made it inconvenient for him to visit their son. When the state took his license away for failure to pay child support he couldn't afford, he continued to drive to work and gave every cent of what he made to her with the exception of gas money while his family supported him. I spent nights on the phone with him listening to his struggles and sorrows and I helped him to rectify the situation, so I think your claim that I have no empathy for men with respect to these issues is erroneous.

Have you even really sat down and considered the physical trauma and emotional turmoil that a woman might go through if she chooses to get an abortion? Do you even really know the amount of care a young child requires and considered what it would be like to have to raise a child entirely on your own? I doubt it. You have just come to your own conclusions using your perspective entirely, without even consulting anyone from the opposing side, and burned those conclusions into your head as fact in true Asperger fashion. So to an extend I forgive you for your views on such issues but I do encourage you to really make more of an effort to understand what is involved for women in these matters. Not necessarily because I want you to agree with me but because it's important to have the ability to fully understand the scope of situations in life, and the nature of the struggles of others as much as possible.

Concerning the matter of unwanted children, I believe once the child exists it's the responsibility of both parents, to that child and to society to care for it, regardless of who wanted the child and who didn't. I also believe that men should not be made to pay child support for a child who is not theirs, and in most instances, children should not be allowed to be put up for adoption by the mother without the father's consent. In the event that the mother does not want the child and the father does, the father should get full custody and the mother should pay child support.



LKL
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11 Jan 2012, 1:46 am

Orwell wrote:
LKL, there is an important point here: the law is unfair to men. Men have no choices after sex; if there is a zef formed and the woman wishes to carry it to term, the man is legally obligated to support that decision. If she chooses to abort a pregnancy then the man must allow that decision as well, even if he wants the child and would be willing to assume full legal/financial responsibility for it. As mentioned in the first clip, women also have somewhat more control in birth control. If a couple agrees on a woman taking the pill as their method of birth control, the man has to cede control in trusting the woman on that. (For the moment I am disregarding why a man would have sex with a woman he couldn't trust on that level). The woman does know for certain if she has been using birth control properly- at no point does she have to take the man's word for anything, unless he is falsely claiming to have had a vasectomy.

Having recognized that the law is unfair and unbalanced here, I am still going to come out and say that current law should stand. There really is no conceivable way that the law could establish a fair and equitable balance between the rights of both men and women, especially when considering the question of continuing or terminating a pregnancy. But the woman is the one who gestates the fetus and assumes the much greater share of physical risk, so in case of disagreement her rights trump the man's.

Orwell, this is all true but it leaves a lot out. I agree that men have too few birth control options (condoms or sterilization), and that they're not perfect, but women's birth control options are not perfect either. A lot of women (though not all of them) gain weight on hormonal birth control; a lot of women lose their libido on hormonal birth control; a few women get a little psychotic on hormonal birth control. Aside from hormonal birth control, you've got barrier methods and sterilization. In addition, as I noted in the link in my last post, men can and do sabbotage their birth control in order to control their girlfreinds/wives with a pregnancy (young women in particular are going to be more vulnerable to manipulation and dependency if they're pregnant and/or caring for a young child).

If the two prospective parents have a good relationship, the woman is going to include the man in the decision-making process; if they don't have a good relationship, he shouldn't be able to manipulate what she does with her own body out of spite for her.

I sort of hinted at this a little bit before, but this is actually a development that the MRAs (given how they whine about how the women are the ones who have all the choice about whether and when to have sex) should welcome: men, since they can no longer run away from a child based on the 'she's a whore, the kid isn't mine!' excuse (thanks to genetic testing), are going to have to become more selective in whom they sleep with. The basis for 'females as choosers' is the idea that sperm is cheap, but when the man legally has to take a parent's responsibility for his offspring, it becomes less so.



LKL
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11 Jan 2012, 1:52 am

(snip quote nest)

Jono wrote:
Ah, so a vasectomy is not invasive is it? I would think that it is. Personally, I think that this is relevant to the topic since it compares men's BC options with women's.
I wrote,
"If, on the other hand, a tubal ligation were a less invasive surgery than a vasectomy (it's not), and it was easy for a woman to harvest and freeze eggs (it's not), then that would be a good option for birth control for women.

See the emphasis.



hyperlexian
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11 Jan 2012, 3:52 pm

sockpuppet of a banned member


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