psychoanalysis
I have often pondered why citizenship is mandatory, and why there is not a system in place for people who are born into a society whom disagree with it on fundamental levels. Then again, I disagree with it on so many levels I shouldn’t be surprised that compulsive inclusion is just another one on the list.
I agree. I think this for me is core to 'the human condition': natural intellectual animals living thoroughly within civilization rather than within nature as our pre-human ancestors did. But don't forget that civilization for all it's troubles, has provided and continues to provide great benefits to us, ones which we not be able to have in a state of nature. Civilization is basically here to stay so the question is how best to optomise that civilization and ones individual life within it.
don't you think it might be the nature of social organisation within civilisation, rather than civilisation itself, that might be the problem? for instance, don't you think that authoritarian conditioning might well be a source of trauma?
To say 'the nature of social organisation within civilization' is, to me, another way of saying 'the nature of civilization' or the nature of 'a particular civilization', and to this extent I would agree with you, that that is 'the problem'. However, I do find it hard to see how, in practice, any form of civilization and the various sub-forms within that, can be immune to generating fundamental difficulties in terms of individual psychic life. And this is because any state of culture rather than of nature demands the sublimation of natural inclinations in exchange for the aggregated benefits of the civilized state. What is more, within a civilization, natural desires will express themselves in one way or another and this will lead to social and economic injustice, among other things, where some get what they want at the expense of others not getting what they want.
but surely civilisation can be egalitarian and tolerant? disparity of wealth and the atomising, alienating effects of capitalism are what i would see as the problems.
How do you see it?
aye i think it's a big factor. the education system, pressure to conform, tendency towards bullying and authoritarian relationships, economic precarity, working long hours under pressure in meaningless low paid demeaning work, living in claustrophobic and overcrowded environments etc. all of these are contributory factors.
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith
see also erich fromm's the sane society, a critical synopsis of which can be found here:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/mattick ... /fromm.htm
see also here: http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/fromm.html
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith
I think civilzation can be improved upon but I think it is an authoritarian or even violent act to establish a civilization, as against the state of nature, in the first place. This is why I think that authority is inherent to civilzation. I think it could be possible for civilization to be less authoritarian, more egalitarian and generally better in aggregate for its members, but I find it hard to see how some kind of utopian civilization is possible in practice.
what do you consider to be the state of nature, and how can it not be reconciled with civilisation?
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith
In nature there is evidence of authority and society. Bees, Ants etc have hierarchies in the structure of their nests. It is as though humans are trying to force ourselves into that scenario. Now imagine if genetic engineering takes place and we end up with a Brave New World type future. We could end up the mamalian equivelent of a bee hive, or Ants nest.
do you think authority is a prerequisite of civilisation?
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith
Mankind has not lived in a "state of nature" for over 10,000 years. All humans live in societies, the most primitive of which are extended families and the most complicated of which are large collection of non-blood related folk united by language and culture.
ruveyn
Good question.
I suppose I'm thinking of a situation where 'might is right' ie, where the strongest tend to get their way at the expense of others. A situation where there are no rules governing behaviour other than those that the strongest enforce in practice. A situation where there is nothing stopping us from getting what we want apart from the consequences of that.
Actually, that's starting to sound a lot like civilization, and I suppose that should be no surprise as natural tendencies must try to come out one way or another. I think the question could be whether civilization will only ever really benefit the strong. Going back to the riots, as an example, perhaps here we see a threat to the strong. Will the strong make concessions to the weak? Perhaps only if the upsurge of the weak is a threat to the strong's position.
That's one angle on your question. Excuse the simplistic language where appropriate.
but egalitarian societies have existed, though. how would you explain it?
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith
Where? Give examples. And how long have they last as egalitarian societies?
It is natural for humans to create hierarchies. That is part of our primate nature. Somewhere, somehow there is an alpha male.
ruveyn
!kung, mbuti pygmies, khoi, inuit peoples among many examples.
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith