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Saturn
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22 Jan 2012, 4:26 am

I tend to the view that there is no free-will in the sense that everything that happens is a result of what has happened before. I don't see how it is possible for something to spontaneousely occur that is not part of this deterministic process. That is not to say that novel things cannot arise, only that we are incapable of any intervention in the process.

Let me see otherwise if you can.



donnie_darko
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22 Jan 2012, 3:20 pm

I agree. I think free will is a concept that was invented to justify punishment.



blauSamstag
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22 Jan 2012, 3:23 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
I agree. I think free will is a concept that was invented to justify punishment.


I don't think it's necessary, though.

It only bolsters the concept of culpability.

If there is no free will, you were gonna get punished for that anyway.



donnie_darko
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22 Jan 2012, 3:35 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I agree. I think free will is a concept that was invented to justify punishment.


I don't think it's necessary, though.

It only bolsters the concept of culpability.

If there is no free will, you were gonna get punished for that anyway.


Well I should clarify. It was invented I think to justify retributive justice, and to make people feel less bad about returning bad for bad.



blauSamstag
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22 Jan 2012, 3:39 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I agree. I think free will is a concept that was invented to justify punishment.


I don't think it's necessary, though.

It only bolsters the concept of culpability.

If there is no free will, you were gonna get punished for that anyway.


Well I should clarify. It was invented I think to justify retributive justice, and to make people feel less bad about returning bad for bad.


Yeah - culpability.

I figure it doesn't matter whether my will is truly free. I'm just gonna keep doing whatever i'm gonna do either way.



Jono
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22 Jan 2012, 5:49 pm

Saturn wrote:
I tend to the view that there is no free-will in the sense that everything that happens is a result of what has happened before. I don't see how it is possible for something to spontaneousely occur that is not part of this deterministic process. That is not to say that novel things cannot arise, only that we are incapable of any intervention in the process.

Let me see otherwise if you can.


That depends on how you define free will. There is a school of thought, called compatibilism, that allows free will to exist even if every action you make is deterministic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism



Saturn
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23 Jan 2012, 12:17 am

donnie_darko wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
donnie_darko wrote:
I agree. I think free will is a concept that was invented to justify punishment.


I don't think it's necessary, though.

It only bolsters the concept of culpability.

If there is no free will, you were gonna get punished for that anyway.


Well I should clarify. It was invented I think to justify retributive justice, and to make people feel less bad about returning bad for bad.


Why do you think it was invented for this? I mean, what do you base those thoughts on? What is your evidence for this?



Saturn
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23 Jan 2012, 12:21 am

Jono wrote:
Saturn wrote:
I tend to the view that there is no free-will in the sense that everything that happens is a result of what has happened before. I don't see how it is possible for something to spontaneousely occur that is not part of this deterministic process. That is not to say that novel things cannot arise, only that we are incapable of any intervention in the process.

Let me see otherwise if you can.


That depends on how you define free will. There is a school of thought, called compatibilism, that allows free will to exist even if every action you make is deterministic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism


I'm thinking of free-will in the harder metaphysical sense which from checking out the link isn't really spoken to by compatibilism it seems.



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23 Jan 2012, 12:57 am

From an old post:
I am almost certain that free will (we chose to do things based solely on volition) does not exist. I think that the causes of our behavior are complex in that they are untraceable to a 'definite origin.' Imagine a line of dominoes as knocking the other down, one by one, you can always say, "this domino fell because the previous one pushed on it." But if you have a nearly infinite number of dominoes in an infinite amount of direction, ( which is reality) you then can't find or "sense" the casual chain, so we think the domino fell because 'it wanted to.' That is how I think we look at our own free will - it's an inexperience of the voluminous hidden mechanisms, or just merely the way we experience doing what we do.


This topic has been exhausted here and in many other places , but one cannot get away from the fact that we are essentially mechanic, and there is nothing behind the mechanism other than a network of neuronal switching relays, functioning on a linear timeline.

We feel free if we are unaware of the programming. But the reality of it is we become conscious that we have decided.



Sunshine7
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23 Jan 2012, 9:26 am

I think you're confusing free will with determinism.
Neither implies the other.



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23 Jan 2012, 9:28 am

Sunshine7 wrote:
I think you're confusing free will with determinism.
Neither implies the other.


Free Will denies determinism. If the world is deterministic than our "will" is a hard computable function of the state of the world. In short, our brain and nervous system would behave in ways strictly determined by the current state of the world. Which means no choice, hence no Free Will.

ruveyn



Sunshine7
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23 Jan 2012, 9:35 am

Quote:
If the world is deterministic than our "will" is a hard computable function of the state of the world. In short, our brain and nervous system would behave in ways strictly determined by the current state of the world.


There exist NP-hard problems that are deterministic.

Your definition of "will" relies on the premise that the mechanical/chemical actions of our brain/CNS wholly and entirely dictate our consciousness and mind (and hence choice of action, so to speak). I can't say you're wrong, but I don't think you can say you're right either.



Mdyar
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23 Jan 2012, 9:40 am

Sunshine7 wrote:
Quote:
If the world is deterministic than our "will" is a hard computable function of the state of the world. In short, our brain and nervous system would behave in ways strictly determined by the current state of the world.


There exist NP-hard problems that are deterministic.

Your definition of "will" relies on the premise that the mechanical/chemical actions of our brain/CNS wholly and entirely dictate our consciousness and mind (and hence choice of action, so to speak). I can't say you're wrong, but I don't think you can say you're right either.


What other premise is there that implies we are not mechanical? Soul?



b9
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23 Jan 2012, 9:47 am

if there is no "free will", then an insurance company i see advertising on the TV continuously is falsely representing themselves.

in the ad i see in every ad break, it says that with every insurance policy bought, they will throw in a "free will" kit for....free.

i wonder how many people who are constrained by expectation have bought that insurance policy just to get the "free will" kit.

i wonder whether they got what they wanted.



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23 Jan 2012, 12:06 pm

And also there is a great variety of theories out there. Why just assume linearity? Seems this simplification is a few hundred years old now shamelessly used by everybody.
Does quantum theory kill determinism? How is free will defined, how does it work? How does determinism come into play? It is certainly not linear and possibly multi-dimensional problem. Determinists have to go great lengths to keep up with its opponents these days.



b9
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23 Jan 2012, 12:12 pm

mar00 wrote:
And also there is a great variety of theories out there. Why just assume linearity? Seems this simplification is a few hundred years old now shamelessly used by everybody.
Does quantum theory kill determinism? How is free will defined, how does it work? How does determinism come into play? It is certainly not linear and possibly multi-dimensional problem. Determinists have to go great lengths to keep up with its opponents these days.


you'll never work it out. just relax and go with the flow.
even if you decide that you will not go with the flow because you are smarter than that, you will still go with the flow after you are dislodged from your snag by the stream of reality. no one is able to argue with the universe.