Gifted people are similar to autistics?

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Mdyar
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03 Feb 2012, 5:15 pm

dr01dguy wrote:
My point is that for all intents and purposes, when *I* was in gifted (1980s), it basically *was* "Special Ed for Supra Genius Kids" (all of whom also happened to have *major* social problems).

They didn't give IQ tests to the entire student body, then put the top 1% in Gifted... you were identified by a teacher as "likely to be gifted", tested, and rescued from the indignity of taking many classes with "normal" students if you passed. Under those conditions, it's unsurprising that all of the guys in my class were blatant aspies by any modern standard. Smart NT guys just fell through the cracks.

As far as being able to "pass for NT" is concerned, the key
question isn't whether or not they can do it, but "how long can they SUSTAIN the 'NT act', and what time threshold disqualifies them from Aspie status if they can say, "Yes, my life has some very real impairments compared to many less-intelligent kids, even if my life isn't completely dysfunctional?"


Could be meltdowns ,sensory issues, difficulty reading body language, extreme difficulty with change, interests that interfere with daily routine-- bundled. If you look at the DSM 299.80, it requires several behaviors to a significant level as where it interferes with daily life/work--- the threshold.



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03 Feb 2012, 5:29 pm

dr01dguy wrote:
My point is that for all intents and purposes, when *I* was in gifted (1980s), it basically *was* "Special Ed for Supra Genius Kids" (all of whom also happened to have *major* social problems).

They didn't give IQ tests to the entire student body, then put the top 1% in Gifted... you were identified by a teacher as "likely to be gifted", tested, and rescued from the indignity of taking many classes with "normal" students if you passed. Under those conditions, it's unsurprising that all of the guys in my class were blatant aspies by any modern standard. Smart NT guys just fell through the cracks.

As far as being able to "pass for NT" is concerned, the key
question isn't whether or not they can do it, but "how long can they SUSTAIN the 'NT act', and what time threshold disqualifies them from Aspie status if they can say, "Yes, my life has some very real impairments compared to many less-intelligent kids, even if my life isn't completely dysfunctional?"


If they really were socially handicapped maybe some were Aspies, I'm just saying it's not the case that most will be Aspie in any given situation.

Yes, people on the spectrum can also "pass" or turn on NT mode, but this isn't something all Aspies can do and it's VERY difficult for many.

IMO that in itself as an important distinction to make, it's not like all Aspies can do it if they just try hard enough to. So I think it is a key question.

Some lack the wiring, there is no getting around that and you can't improve upon something that isn't there.

If you are an Aspie who doesn't lack the wiring, you are already closer to being NT but are still probably closer to being an Aspie, since you received a diagnosis.

If you are NT who's wiring seems to be impaired, you are probably within the gray area. Nothing wrong with that.

My point is that all of mankind and especially the BAP is a spectrum, I don't see it as being denied "Aspie status", just as simply not being an Aspie. In my case, I'm grateful.

In retrospect, I would also have impairments if I looked back and compared myself to other people but they still aren't to the same degree as most on the spectrum.

It's NBD, I'm just saying I don't see the need to make that leap to AS or label other people with just because they have some traits but maybe you actually had Aspies in your class. I just thought your criteria seemed vague.


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dr01dguy
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03 Feb 2012, 5:32 pm

The point I'm getting at is that if you really look at actual kids in most gifted programs, for every kid you manage to find who's unambiguously NT, you're going to find 10-20+ who are at least marginal Aspies who could find enough checklist items to justify the diagnosis if pressed to do so. Maybe more, if you took their meds away for a week.


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03 Feb 2012, 9:33 pm

dr01dguy wrote:
My point is that for all intents and purposes, when *I* was in gifted (1980s), it basically *was* "Special Ed for Supra Genius Kids" (all of whom also happened to have *major* social problems).


Interesting. When I was in gifted classes I didn't fit in with the rest of the class. I wasn't interested in the lectures or the other students, I just wanted to do the empirical work. The other students got along with each other and I didn't talk to any of them. I don't think the other gifted students were autistic or necessarily had ADHD.



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03 Feb 2012, 9:34 pm

dr01dguy wrote:
The point I'm getting at is that if you really look at actual kids in most gifted programs, for every kid you manage to find who's unambiguously NT, you're going to find 10-20+ who are at least marginal Aspies who could find enough checklist items to justify the diagnosis if pressed to do so. Maybe more, if you took their meds away for a week.


This number is significantly higher than the demographics for autism would suggest.



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03 Feb 2012, 10:01 pm

The other kids in my gifted classes sure didn't seem to be socially impaired. In the school system I went to, the "smart" kids were actually the popular kids. Not all of the popular/smart kids were actually in the gifted classes, but some were, and they were very snobby and mean.

There was one girl my age from the popular set, who started coming to gifted classes when we were in the third grade. We got to be friends and because of that, I got pulled into the popular crowd for awhile. Then I made some sort of gaffe, and just like that, they rejected me. They were teasing me about a crush I had on someone, and I didn't respond the right way, whatever that was. It was a defining moment, and I knew it even then. The cliques got sorted out early on, and stayed that way up through high school.



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03 Feb 2012, 10:18 pm

dianthus wrote:
The other kids in my gifted classes sure didn't seem to be socially impaired. In the school system I went to, the "smart" kids were actually the popular kids. Not all of the popular/smart kids were actually in the gifted classes, but some were, and they were very snobby and mean.

There was one girl my age from the popular set, who started coming to gifted classes when we were in the third grade. We got to be friends and because of that, I got pulled into the popular crowd for awhile. Then I made some sort of gaffe, and just like that, they rejected me. They were teasing me about a crush I had on someone, and I didn't respond the right way, whatever that was. It was a defining moment, and I knew it even then. The cliques got sorted out early on, and stayed that way up through highsp school.


This is why I think it's critical to make the distinction between gifted NTs and people with ASD.

I've known some people like this and they can be like what you describe here, although they may ALSO be eccentric, "quirky", introverted, and share some other traits with Aspies.spies

They have an advantage over autistics, whether they choose to use it for good or evil is completely up to them.

Bu my point is that they are innately wired to be social beings and have the ability to manipulate those on the spectrum before an Aspie would know what had hit them.

IMO Asperger's itself is only a disorder because of the existence of NTs. That sounds obvious, but there are other diagnosis that wouldn't be "normal" in a world without NTs, either, and people with them don't appear normal next to most Aspies.

There is nothing inherently disabling about AS(aside from sensory issues and anxiety, but much of this comes from dealing with people, for me), it only becomes a disadvantage and disability when people on the spectrum are put into an NT world.

Aspies don't always get along with other Aspies either, there might be some difficulty with socialization regardless but they same consequences usually aren't suffered after an Aspie-Aspie conflict.

It's just important to remember that although an Aspie may be gifted and have many positive traits, they are disabled solely due to the fact that NTs are most likely always going to a be a few steps ahead of them, socially.

And there's nothing worse than the NT pack mentality when they turn on you.


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Last edited by EXPECIALLY on 03 Feb 2012, 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Feb 2012, 10:27 pm

I was put in some of those "special" classes for gifted kids when I was young. I have only vague memories of it since I was in grade school at the time and it wasn't particularly well organized. I didn't socialize any more there than I did in regular school. In fact, I probably socialized less since the kids were quieter and didn't bother me. I seem to recall they had trouble motivating me to do anything. The concept of doing extra homework for no reason seemed somewhat ridiculous to me. I also tended to be internally focused. Once I learned something, I was finished with it, and went on to learn something else. I saw no point in discussing it or writing reports on it. Why repeat things I already know? I was very good at taking in the knowledge and spitting it out on command, but when I was young, this was really all it ever was, collecting facts and reciting them to amuse adults. I knew adults thought I was 'smart'. I never understood why it was so great that I could remember things I read or do well on tests. I really didn't understand that my mental abilities were unique to me until I was much older. I tended to assume everyone would think of things the same way I did. If something was easy for me, it should be easy for everyone. The things that are plain and simple to me can't possibly be complicated to others. Perhaps this is what an 'impaired theory of mind' is.

Aspies have several natural traits that are similar enough to those who are 'gifted' that we can actually pass as such. We tend to be highly focused, good at memorizing things, and have highly logical minds. Our unemotional nature makes people think we're more mature than we are. Society identifies certain groups as highly intelligent, such as philosophers, writers, scientists, mathematicians, engineers, etc. The outward qualities that are displayed by these groups such as being quiet, detached, logical, thoughtful, etc. are qualities that Aspies have naturally. "Little professors" was a term used by Hans Asperger himself to describe children that acted more like studied scholars than they did other children.

It is possible that our definition of "gifted" is the problem more than anything else. I would be interested to see how "gifted" children do in life when compared with the average adjusted for such things as socioeconomic status, geography, education level, and educational area. I would wager a fairly large sum that being "gifted" as a child is not a very good predictor of later success, at least as measured in terms of income.

In practice, I'd say a significant percentage of kids in the gifted classes are undiagnosed aspie, aspie but with impairments that fall short of the clinical diagnosis, or BAP.


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Last edited by Zur-Darkstar on 03 Feb 2012, 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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03 Feb 2012, 10:31 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:
IMO Asperger's itself is only a disorder because of the existence of NTs.

There is nothing inherently disabling about AS(aside from sensory issues and anxiety, but much of this comes from dealing with people, for me), it only becomes a disadvantage and disability when people on the spectrum are put into an NT world.


I wouldn't say my problems are only problems because of other people. I have severe issues with practical things, like housekeeping, that have nothing to do with other people. But the way the NT world is set up, definitely makes my issues much more severe than they need to be.

I would have fewer sensory issues to deal with, if the pace of life was slower and simpler. Modern conveniences cause a lot of the problems...too many lights and too many sounds. Too much "stuff". Too many choices. Too much information. Too many things coming at me to process them all.



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03 Feb 2012, 10:35 pm

dianthus wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
IMO Asperger's itself is only a disorder because of the existence of NTs.

There is nothing inherently disabling about AS(aside from sensory issues and anxiety, but much of this comes from dealing with people, for me), it only becomes a disadvantage and disability when people on the spectrum are put into an NT world.


I wouldn't say my problems are only problems because of other people. I have severe issues with practical things, like housekeeping, that have nothing to do with other people. But the way the NT world is set up, definitely makes my issues much more severe than they need to be.

I would have fewer sensory issues to deal with, if the pace of life was slower and simpler. Modern conveniences cause a lot of the problems...too many lights and too many sounds. Too much "stuff". Too many choices. Too much information. Too many things coming at me to process them all.


That's also the detachment from reality and the ADHD side of AS that many have, but not all.

But yes, some people with AS can be trapped deeply within their own minds, although if this world weren't NT, we wouldn't be expected to engage in so many things, so living in your own mind would be more permissble.


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03 Feb 2012, 10:50 pm

Verdandi wrote:
marshall wrote:
Phonic wrote:
To be clear, I mean high IQ, not giftedness in a splinter area.


Giftedness and high IQ are not 100% synonymous IMO.


Could you elaborate?


I don't think IQ tests necessarily capture the intuitive thinking ability that's most prominent with giftedness.

I also personally identify with most of the listed traits of so-called giftedness even though I don't have an exceptionally high IQ. It's mainly that I'm a very "right-brained" thinker (i.e. visual-spatial, non-sequential, abstract, intuitive, non-language based).



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03 Feb 2012, 11:03 pm

marshall wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
marshall wrote:
Phonic wrote:
To be clear, I mean high IQ, not giftedness in a splinter area.


Giftedness and high IQ are not 100% synonymous IMO.


Could you elaborate?


I don't think IQ tests necessarily capture the intuitive thinking ability that's most prominent with giftedness.

I also personally identify with most of the listed traits of so-called giftedness even though I don't have an exceptionally high IQ. It's mainly that I'm a very "right-brained" thinker (i.e. visual-spatial, non-sequential, abstract, intuitive, non-language based).


IQ tests were developed by the US Army to assess the abilities and intelligence of soldiers, how they became the standard is beyond me.

Most savants have a measured 1Q of 50-70. Isn't Savant Syndrome "giftedness" in its purest form?
http://www.wisconsinmedicalsociety.org/ ... at_persist


So ITA with you.

Many professionals have said that they believe nearly everyone on the spectrum and many with ADHD have brains that wired like that of gifted peoples', regardless of IQ.

I won't get into too much detail, but it has to do with being able to learn facts and grasp ideas independently from emotion and pre-existing knowledge and having a mind that isn't "programmed".


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03 Feb 2012, 11:36 pm

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That's also the detachment from reality and the ADHD side of AS that many have, but not all.


Well... "detachment from reality" is kind of a harsh way to put it (it makes us sound almost schizophrenic)... ;-)

I'd prefer to say that those of us on the INTP side of Aspiedom aren't quite shackled by real-world despair & drudgery, even though we know that most of our fantasies are basically mental masturbation. Still, at the end of the day, someone has to spend hundreds of hours making raytraced animations of fantasy high speed rail lines to get NTs excited and bring them one tiny step closer to reality, even if we know deep down inside that we'll probably be old or dead before the first backhoe gets reserved... In any case, it might be mental masturbation, but who said masturbation can't be fun? :cool:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkrFcrpgACo[/youtube]

And of course, the fantasy that someday, I'll be able to film a scene like this somewhere between Miami and Orlando... sigh...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWKxKduzs7M[/youtube]


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03 Feb 2012, 11:52 pm

dr01dguy wrote:
Quote:
That's also the detachment from reality and the ADHD side of AS that many have, but not all.


Well... "detachment from reality" is kind of a harsh way to put it (it makes us sound almost schizophrenic)... ;-)


I do not have "detachment from reality." I have detachment from physical reality. I forget to take care of physical things. I forget that physical things are solid, and breakable. I forget that there are consequences for not taking care of physical things within a certain timeframe, and I lose track of how much time is passing.



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03 Feb 2012, 11:58 pm

dr01dguy wrote:
Quote:
That's also the detachment from reality and the ADHD side of AS that many have, but not all.


Well... "detachment from reality" is kind of a harsh way to put it (it makes us sound almost schizophrenic)... ;-)

I'd prefer to say that those of us on the INTP side of Aspiedom aren't quite shackled by real-world despair & drudgery, even though we know that most of our fantasies are basically mental masturbation. Still, at the end of the day, someone has to spend hundreds of hours making raytraced animations of fantasy high speed rail lines to get NTs excited and bring them one tiny step closer to reality, even if we know deep down inside that we'll probably be old or dead before the first backhoe gets reserved... In any case, it might be mental masturbation, but who said masturbation can't be fun? :cool:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkrFcrpgACo[/youtube]

And of course, the fantasy that someday, I'll be able to film a scene like this somewhere between Miami and Orlando... sigh...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWKxKduzs7M[/youtube]


ASD is close to schizophrenia. I think there are different forms of ASD, personally, that haven't been given any kind of medical description, but they are two very closely related disorders and some autistics are more like schizophrenics than others.

My dad is schizophrenic, so whatever kind of crazy I have is very similar to his, Asperger's and Schizophrenia often run in familes mor common than AS an low functiong autism from what I've gathered her.

But, I've always been this way and it hasn't gotten worse.

I've had very pronounced detachment from reality, at times. I can usually hide it and recover quickly. but there have been times when I haven't been able to hide it all that well, and coming out if wasn't easy.

So, I don't know how it is for you but I've experienced depersonalization(another trait associated with schizohorenia) most of my life and have always been in a "bubble".

Although I can still function, it's still a sense of being detatched and being in one's own world, which is how most professionals describe AS.

So I think some people with ASD are very different that schizophrenics, but I do see people here who are very similar IMO.

I'm 27 now, I'd say that I what I have isn't getting worse but has been stable throughout life and could be described as a mild version of schizophrenia without delusions or hallucinations. Such a thing doesn't exist, AS, "creative", "artistic", or "plain weird' is as close as it gets.

I'm also INTP lol.


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Last edited by EXPECIALLY on 04 Feb 2012, 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Feb 2012, 12:10 am

Er, sorry, but I'm rather boring in that regard. I might fantasize about trains more often than I think about sex, but I'm sufficiently-grounded in reality to know that nothing like this is ever going to get built unless someone in Washington decide to shamelessly buy Florida's votes in the next election by giving us a really nice $12 billion Christmas present. :(


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