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Deinonychus
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09 Feb 2012, 5:30 am

Reading this has left me feeling something I can only describe as a cross between great dread and seething anger, and I sincerely hope that through the peaceful yet stalwart efforts of myself and others that this dystopia never takes root in the United States of America.



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09 Feb 2012, 7:27 am

Danimal wrote:
I certainly hope the US is not on the same course as the UK.
I know the benefits for the unemployed here aren't generous, either. It's not unusual now to see older adults working at fast food restaurants, dollar stores, and Wal-Mart. Many factory jobs were lost here in Indiana because of the recession, so people take whatever jobs they can find.
I'm probably quite sheltered living here. The largest city is Chicago, but it's 200 miles away. Indianapolis doesn't have a big city image. I wouldn't be too worried if I was in one of the poorer neighborhoods.
Perhaps some of you in the UK would like to come live here to live. We don't enslave people. We gave that up a long time ago.


That is true, but too many people are treated like sh*t by both the government and the larger more irresponsible business firms. We don't have slavery in the U.S. but Justice is in hiding in our republic.

ruveyn



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09 Feb 2012, 8:51 am

puddingmouse wrote:
I generally agree with DC.

Just a few points, though. Before the expansion of ESOL, one of the most common complaints was that immigrants no speak the English. You do have to pay for ESOL now and there are in fact waiting lists for most places on courses. I used to teach free Adult Literacy classes aimed at aformentioned 'chavscum' and people who were old and have no quals, but I ended up teaching a lot of immigrants because they couldn't get on an ESOL course.

I think it's a bit of a red herring to blame immigrants for this problem so much. Most of the Eastern European migrants have gone back now that our economy is boobs up. We do have an immigration 'problem' but that is mainly caused by non-EU nationals bringing (non-English speaking spouses over from abroad and then having lots of kids. That's a cultural problem and there isn't much we can do about it.

my issue with DCs argument was that it centred on the presence of migrants and welfare given to them as opposed to welfare being given to other english people being the issue. i support giving migrants welfare and others already living in england that welfare too. the government can very well afford it. if it can afford to host the olympics it can do that. blaming migrants for the problems of the non-migrant english working class and propagating racism is just another way for the capitalist class to divide and rule the working class as a whole.
the reason i am replying to your response is that the 2nd paragraph very dangerously borders on racism. are you saying the problem is non european and non-english speaking(ie. not white) people coming into the country and breeding too much? are you also saying that the reason there is tension between ethnic groups(the "cultural problem") is not because of racism, it is because of the fact that ethnic types are bringing their culture into britain and not assimilating and that multiculturalism does not work? also implies that the immigrant culture is undesirable and inferior to british culture. did you word that wrong? am i misinterpreting? or did you mean it?
if you meant that migrant families have more children(do they? stats?) and might not yet know the language and need more support from the government and racism is an issue when it comes to cultural differences then i apologise in advance for being so paranoid. some people here are racist and no one ever calls it out so i get cross and respond to things angrily. and this wouldnt be the first time ive heard the "oh i dont want them bringing their culture here" & seeing the reaction of people to white immigrants when compared with non european immigrants on wp just frustrates me. or the reaction to arab muslims. gargh.
im so glad people are taking action against this. i mean there is wage slavery and then there is slavery. obviously the capitalist class cant be bothered with pretending it is anything else anymore.



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09 Feb 2012, 9:50 am

Ok, lets try this again.

Puddingmouse, VMsmith read carefully.


Quote:
Puddingmouse says this:
I think it's a bit of a red herring to blame immigrants for this problem so much


I did not at any point blame immigrants for the state of the country or for anything else. I do not blame immigrants. Those are your words and arguments, not mine.


Quote:
VMSmith says this:

2nd paragraph very dangerously borders on racism
non-english speaking(ie. not white)
multiculturalism does not work
immigrant culture is undesirable and inferior to british culture.
did you word that wrong? am i misinterpreting? or did you mean it?
white immigrants when compared with non european immigrants on wp just frustrates me
or the reaction to arab muslims



This is also a very large part of the problem.

The left wing in Britain for the last 15 years instead of having any form rational debate based on evidence has instead just screamed racist whenever anybody even remotely gets close to criticising their policies. They have gone so far down this road they are completely incapable of doing or thinking anything else and have become completely divorced from reality.

VMSmith, go back and read every single word I have posted in this thread. Where did I even bring up the topic of culture, religion, skin colour or arab muslims let alone do so in a derogatory fashion?

If you want to know my views on racism why don't you read them instead of going on a holier than thou witchhunt?

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4181318.html#4181318

Does that sound racist to you? Has your view on reality really become so warped that you can hold the position that a person who completely rejects the notion of race and claims genetic science has completely disproven it can also be proved to be racist in a debate where he doesn't mention even race?


Edit: The icing on the cake here is puddingmouse agreeing with my views on race:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4183625.html#4183625

Would it be possible to carry on this conversation without derailing it with accusations of racism please? Just for once?



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09 Feb 2012, 2:04 pm

excellent topic to bring up. interesting posts from psych, dc and puddingmouse, and just chiming in to say that it is my belief that there is currently a test case going through the courts with a young english lady legally challenging this, had a very interesting discussion relating to this with a solicitor working in poverty law the other day. i'm just away to try and find more information on it...


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09 Feb 2012, 2:17 pm

here is an article from the guardian, last november, with some info on the legal challenge:


Quote:
Solicitors from Public Interest Lawyers in Birmingham acting on behalf of two clients involved in the mandatory work activity programme have told the Guardian that they are seeking a judicial review of the scheme, arguing their clients were being forced to work against their will, amounting to a breach of their human rights under article 4 (2) of the HRA, which states: "No one shall be required to perform forced or compulsory labour."

Jim Duffy from PIL said: "Forcing jobseekers to work for free may benefit big business but does nothing to break the cycle of unemployment and poverty. Instead it amounts to exploitation, decided at the whim of a Jobcentre Plus adviser."



and here, http://www.publicinterestlawyers.co.uk/ the solicitors challenging it have an article on their front page. i'm assuming the case is still ongoing, will be interested to see the outcome.





another point of interest to those objectionable to this is what is happening to disability benefits claimants. with the migration to ESA, many of those finding themselves in the work focused group are being sent to employment agencies such as "inguis"? and ats, and forced to sit at pointless appointments with advisers who apparently simply send the claimants home, after oftentimes having travelled miles, the difficulties of their disabilities, mental health problems, etc. notwithstanding.

i recently read somewhere that people making new claims to sickness/disability benefits will be required for the first three months of their claim to sign on and prove that they are actively seeking work. i'll try and find the source of this, as it was a couple of months ago that i read it.


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09 Feb 2012, 2:19 pm

VMSmith wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
I generally agree with DC.

Just a few points, though. Before the expansion of ESOL, one of the most common complaints was that immigrants no speak the English. You do have to pay for ESOL now and there are in fact waiting lists for most places on courses. I used to teach free Adult Literacy classes aimed at aformentioned 'chavscum' and people who were old and have no quals, but I ended up teaching a lot of immigrants because they couldn't get on an ESOL course.

I think it's a bit of a red herring to blame immigrants for this problem so much. Most of the Eastern European migrants have gone back now that our economy is boobs up. We do have an immigration 'problem' but that is mainly caused by non-EU nationals bringing (non-English speaking spouses over from abroad and then having lots of kids. That's a cultural problem and there isn't much we can do about it.

my issue with DCs argument was that it centred on the presence of migrants and welfare given to them as opposed to welfare being given to other english people being the issue. i support giving migrants welfare and others already living in england that welfare too. the government can very well afford it. if it can afford to host the olympics it can do that. blaming migrants for the problems of the non-migrant english working class and propagating racism is just another way for the capitalist class to divide and rule the working class as a whole.
the reason i am replying to your response is that the 2nd paragraph very dangerously borders on racism. are you saying the problem is non european and non-english speaking(ie. not white) people coming into the country and breeding too much? are you also saying that the reason there is tension between ethnic groups(the "cultural problem") is not because of racism, it is because of the fact that ethnic types are bringing their culture into britain and not assimilating and that multiculturalism does not work? also implies that the immigrant culture is undesirable and inferior to british culture. did you word that wrong? am i misinterpreting? or did you mean it?
if you meant that migrant families have more children(do they? stats?) and might not yet know the language and need more support from the government and racism is an issue when it comes to cultural differences then i apologise in advance for being so paranoid. some people here are racist and no one ever calls it out so i get cross and respond to things angrily. and this wouldnt be the first time ive heard the "oh i dont want them bringing their culture here" & seeing the reaction of people to white immigrants when compared with non european immigrants on wp just frustrates me. or the reaction to arab muslims. gargh.
im so glad people are taking action against this. i mean there is wage slavery and then there is slavery. obviously the capitalist class cant be bothered with pretending it is anything else anymore.


i can see where you're coming from, but feel you might be misinterpreting dc's post, in that my reading of it takes that he is critical of government policy rather than immigrants. puddingmouse's post is admittedly problematic...


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09 Feb 2012, 3:53 pm

man in a coma declared fit for work!


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09 Feb 2012, 5:18 pm

VMSmith wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
I generally agree with DC.

Just a few points, though. Before the expansion of ESOL, one of the most common complaints was that immigrants no speak the English. You do have to pay for ESOL now and there are in fact waiting lists for most places on courses. I used to teach free Adult Literacy classes aimed at aformentioned 'chavscum' and people who were old and have no quals, but I ended up teaching a lot of immigrants because they couldn't get on an ESOL course.

I think it's a bit of a red herring to blame immigrants for this problem so much. Most of the Eastern European migrants have gone back now that our economy is boobs up. We do have an immigration 'problem' but that is mainly caused by non-EU nationals bringing (non-English speaking spouses over from abroad and then having lots of kids. That's a cultural problem and there isn't much we can do about it.

my issue with DCs argument was that it centred on the presence of migrants and welfare given to them as opposed to welfare being given to other english people being the issue. i support giving migrants welfare and others already living in england that welfare too. the government can very well afford it. if it can afford to host the olympics it can do that. blaming migrants for the problems of the non-migrant english working class and propagating racism is just another way for the capitalist class to divide and rule the working class as a whole.
the reason i am replying to your response is that the 2nd paragraph very dangerously borders on racism. are you saying the problem is non european and non-english speaking(ie. not white) people coming into the country and breeding too much? are you also saying that the reason there is tension between ethnic groups(the "cultural problem") is not because of racism, it is because of the fact that ethnic types are bringing their culture into britain and not assimilating and that multiculturalism does not work?also implies that the immigrant culture is undesirable and inferior to british culture. did you word that wrong? am i misinterpreting? or did you mean it?
if you meant that migrant families have more children(do they? stats?) and might not yet know the language and need more support from the government and racism is an issue when it comes to cultural differences then i apologise in advance for being so paranoid. some people here are racist and no one ever calls it out so i get cross and respond to things angrily. and this wouldnt be the first time ive heard the "oh i dont want them bringing their culture here" & seeing the reaction of people to white immigrants when compared with non european immigrants on wp just frustrates me. or the reaction to arab muslims. gargh.
im so glad people are taking action against this. i mean there is wage slavery and then there is slavery. obviously the capitalist class cant be bothered with pretending it is anything else anymore.


Everything bolded is what I meant. I live in an immigrant community and have done all my life. I've seen it all. Their culture is undesirable from my POV because of the way it treats women and gay people (not for any other reason). I've had friends and worked with people who have suffered because of this culture. I've seen homosexuals forced to marry, women kidnapped, people get death threats for apostasy or forced to completely change their identity due to the 'community' persecuting them.

And multiculturalism isn't working with the Muslim Desi community in Britain. In some towns in the north of England, they have no interest in integrating and they think the native British culture is inferior to their own. That's why they tend to marry abroad. I've been sexually harassed and racially abused by Desi men several times. A portion of their males think white women are sluts and worth less than their own (thankfully, community leaders acknowledge that this a problem in their culture). They belong to a religion that aggressively seeks to convert the whole world, and as an atheist, you can understand my having a problem with that (I have a problem with all religions that match that description). I am not racist as I do not even believe in race. I am realist as regards mass immigration and sceptical about multiculturalism. If you want to think I'm racist though, go ahead.

I will admit that the Desi Muslim community can suffer horrendous racism and that appals me. It has always appalled me and I've always felt alienated from white people who were racist against Pakistanis/Bangladeshis/Afghans. However, there is more to it than racism. I believe the Desi Muslim community will integrate over time and there will eventually be less racism on both sides. There are enough good people within both communities working on this. As it stands at the moment, there is a lot of tension that is caused as much by a culture clash as it is by racism.

Also, as regards breeding too much. I am pretty strongly in favour of population control and quite Malthusian. I object to anyone breeding too much, regardless of skin colour. However, the reason we don't have enough primary school places in this country and kids are having to stay at home for lack of a school place is caused by certain groups breeding too much - and the government not increasing education spending to accommodate (which, I admit, they can more than afford to do). I am a fan of the idea that the world can only hold so many people, though. I thank the non-existent God every day for having been born in a culture where my worth as a person isn't calculated by how many offspring I produce, and where kids are optional.

This is getting off topic...though I suspect you're going to hate me now. Which is a shame because I quite like you and enjoy reading your posts on here.

I apologise for derailing the crap out of this thread.


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09 Feb 2012, 9:36 pm

DC wrote:
Ok, lets try this again.

Puddingmouse, VMsmith read carefully.


Quote:
Puddingmouse says this:
I think it's a bit of a red herring to blame immigrants for this problem so much


I did not at any point blame immigrants for the state of the country or for anything else. I do not blame immigrants. Those are your words and arguments, not mine.


Quote:
VMSmith says this:

2nd paragraph very dangerously borders on racism
non-english speaking(ie. not white)
multiculturalism does not work
immigrant culture is undesirable and inferior to british culture.
did you word that wrong? am i misinterpreting? or did you mean it?
white immigrants when compared with non european immigrants on wp just frustrates me
or the reaction to arab muslims



This is also a very large part of the problem.

The left wing in Britain for the last 15 years instead of having any form rational debate based on evidence has instead just screamed racist whenever anybody even remotely gets close to criticising their policies. They have gone so far down this road they are completely incapable of doing or thinking anything else and have become completely divorced from reality.

VMSmith, go back and read every single word I have posted in this thread. Where did I even bring up the topic of culture, religion, skin colour or arab muslims let alone do so in a derogatory fashion?

If you want to know my views on racism why don't you read them instead of going on a holier than thou witchhunt?

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4181318.html#4181318

Does that sound racist to you? Has your view on reality really become so warped that you can hold the position that a person who completely rejects the notion of race and claims genetic science has completely disproven it can also be proved to be racist in a debate where he doesn't mention even race?


Edit: The icing on the cake here is puddingmouse agreeing with my views on race:

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postp4183625.html#4183625

Would it be possible to carry on this conversation without derailing it with accusations of racism please? Just for once?

cool down. i appologise for misconstruing your points. it's just that im more used to people mentioning immigrants in an "theyre stealing our jobs and welfare" kinda way. i admit i should have more carefully read your argument. also the points i made about ethnicity, race, religion were not directed at your comment they were a general statement about what i come across on wp and in response to puddingmouses response. again im really sorry.

puddingmouse: i had initially thought you were left wing. apparently i was really wrong.



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10 Feb 2012, 1:51 am

puddingmouse wrote:
...the reason we don't have enough primary school places in this country and kids are having to stay at home for lack of a school place is caused by certain groups breeding too much - and the government not increasing education spending to accommodate (which, I admit, they can more than afford to do)...


surely the ultimate problem is the latter?


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10 Feb 2012, 3:26 am

peebo wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
...the reason we don't have enough primary school places in this country and kids are having to stay at home for lack of a school place is caused by certain groups breeding too much - and the government not increasing education spending to accommodate (which, I admit, they can more than afford to do)...


surely the ultimate problem is the latter?


Yes.

On a global scale, we could seriously do with less humans in the world, but that's another matter.


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10 Feb 2012, 11:08 am

puddingmouse wrote:

Yes.

On a global scale, we could seriously do with less humans in the world, but that's another matter.


How many less and are you volunteering for being one of the numbers reduced?

ruveyn



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10 Feb 2012, 1:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

Yes.

On a global scale, we could seriously do with less humans in the world, but that's another matter.


How many less and are you volunteering for being one of the numbers reduced?

ruveyn


Which is why it's such a difficult problem. There are no easy solutions.


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10 Feb 2012, 3:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:

Yes.

On a global scale, we could seriously do with less humans in the world, but that's another matter.


How many less and are you volunteering for being one of the numbers reduced?

ruveyn


This is the pertinent question.


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