If a person is defective, they should be eliminated

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Pandora_Box
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18 Mar 2012, 6:59 pm

phil777 wrote:
I find it rather offensive that such a topic as this one is discussed here. Are we playing Nazis again? =/


I was never expressing mass genocide. All I expressed is that sometimes we should allow what's natural to occur. Such as if someone is to old and continues getting sick and is continually close to death, just let them die. Quit forcing the older generation to live longer, there should be policies that just let them die as natural instead of making them live longer. When the body is old the body is old. Children whom are born with life illnesses should be just given a stamp of death instead of being forced to continue living a life of hospital and sickness, etc.



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18 Mar 2012, 7:52 pm

Pandora_Box wrote:
phil777 wrote:
I find it rather offensive that such a topic as this one is discussed here. Are we playing Nazis again? =/


I was never expressing mass genocide. All I expressed is that sometimes we should allow what's natural to occur. Such as if someone is to old and continues getting sick and is continually close to death, just let them die. Quit forcing the older generation to live longer, there should be policies that just let them die as natural instead of making them live longer. When the body is old the body is old. Children whom are born with life illnesses should be just given a stamp of death instead of being forced to continue living a life of hospital and sickness, etc.


we all have a choice, in many countries some arent allowed to make those choices but iwe still have the choice.

what happens when technology allows a conscoiusness to continue beyond the abilities of the body?

again technology is natural, it might not be nature as in the evolved biosphere of earth but it is a part of a natural process.
evolution continues beyond genetics, beyond culture and beyond ideology.


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Woofer123
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18 Mar 2012, 8:17 pm

Wtf is wrong with you guys?!?

Why on earth would anybody advocate such a racist and demeaning ideology such as eugenics?!?!?[i]



ruveyn
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18 Mar 2012, 8:24 pm

Woofer123 wrote:
Wtf is wrong with you guys?!?

Why on earth would anybody advocate such a racist and demeaning ideology such as eugenics?!?!?[i]


This approach produces first rate livestock and race-horses. It is not all bad.

ruveyn



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18 Mar 2012, 8:55 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Woofer123 wrote:
Wtf is wrong with you guys?!?

Why on earth would anybody advocate such a racist and demeaning ideology such as eugenics?!?!?[i]


This approach produces first rate livestock and race-horses. It is not all bad.

ruveyn


ideally maybe not,
but the added complexity of human cosciousness and society means that it in practice is almost impossible to implement in any positive way.
we are simply too ignorant and too wrapped up in ourselves to do so anytime soon.

in addition there is the fact that when actively breeding towards specific attributes they often diminish or supress other positive attributes, health is in the eye of the beholder in these cases.
a race horse will obviously be bred for speed and the endurance to keep it up for a race but it will never carry much wheight in relation to work animals and its endurance doesnt come close to that of sturdier breeds toiling in the fields or at the mill.


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Woofer123
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18 Mar 2012, 9:29 pm

It must not be applied to humans. Eugenics can lead to labeling certain people(s) as 'undesrables' and can lead to attempts such as forced sterilization of groups as well as genocide.

Genetic tweaking for example, to save fetuses or individuals with immune system disorders from death is fine. But once people start to try and exterminate/eradicate groups of people, then that is only nazism under a different name.

Another example is down syndrome and aspergers. I am fully in support of using genetic modification to prevent a fetus from having Down Syndrome. But if they are killed instead of trying to find a cure, then therein lies the problem.

As for aspergers, I will never support a "cure" for it just as I will never support a "cure" for being homosexual or black. However, Eugenic thinking can potentially lead to this...



techstepgenr8tion
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18 Mar 2012, 9:37 pm

Woofer123 wrote:
As for aspergers, I will never support a "cure" for it just as I will never support a "cure" for being homosexual or black. However, Eugenic thinking can potentially lead to this...

On a complete side topic - would you support a cure for dyslexia? If we were going to talk about excess connections would you support something that helps people with Aspergers who constantly stutter to prune back excess connections to irrelevant areas which cause that? Would you be for a drug that would give intent more command over the mind's shape? I think before we classify Asperger's as a minority group and start saying that anyone with Asperger's who wants to fix something is a confused and sad individual we'd probably want to define our terms and separate the things that make us 'us' from the things that do nothing more than add up to constant grind and frustration.


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Woofer123
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18 Mar 2012, 9:51 pm

I would support a cure for dyslexia.

I would not support a drug for aserger's.

We have up's and downs, just like NT's do.

Because of the 'downs' we may have, it diesn't mean to get rid of them. It we got rid of an aspect of our own selves then I would feel that NT's should do the same, since in many ways they are defective compared to us.

Also, I never stuttered at all, and I have aspergers. I do not feel that stuttering/speech problems are a part of aspergers. They are more present in other forms of autism.

And yeah- I do feel that we are a minority group and ought to be given our rights as such and to integrate accordingly. Aspies should not ashamed that they have aspergers. I suspect that aspies who feel that aspergers is a disease have had that idea put into them by propaganda such as of the kind preached by organizations such as Autism Speaks. They should not listen to this propaganda.



techstepgenr8tion
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18 Mar 2012, 10:07 pm

Not really sure what you're doing - trying to take a political stand or specifically sinking in to your own experience of Asperger's to the point that its blinding you.

I have to again reiterate for anyone else reading - this isn't related to what I was saying about people with Asperger's being at risk. What I'm trying to figure out; everyone has their best self, the part of them that they wish to get out and share, some of us have major life-long impediments blocking those things into submission. It will be interesting to see what Woofer says on this one - whether he hasn't thought about it or would argue that such things and people don't exist or that the people who have such situations are simply trying to be someone they aren't and need to stop.


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18 Mar 2012, 10:22 pm

Pandora_Box wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
That may be but it still exists, do you honestly expect parents to want to leave their child to die, if there is something they can do to prevent it? Thing is emotions are part of the human experience, to deny them is to deny human nature. I am glad my mom did not feel she could produce a better child....when she had me if she had looked at just the logic then yes I would have been tossed aside to die.


But they are not preventing anything. In the long term the child may still suffer from the problems that they tried to prevent. So there was really nothing worth the effort of wasting the resources to waste more resources on a sick child.


Well tell that to the parents of such children, I am not planning on producing any myself.



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18 Mar 2012, 10:26 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
giving back what is what I would like to know...but that is ridiculous you seem to be justifying the idea we should just simply act neurotypical and accept every attempt at a cure or else.

I'd just argue that those of us who are high functioning should be trying to chip away at the angles that throw barriers between ourselves and NT's. We can and in a sense need to let certain things fly but overall getting communication to work and getting messages conveyed back and forth as well as being able to defend ourselves verbally, ideologically, and even physically is a big deal.

I don't dispute that, though I don't see why I should put to much effort into trying to fit into a society I never have fit into.

Sweetleaf wrote:
I mean there would be no justification for trying to kill off everyone with autism, or any other 'defect'.

In the case of a societal collapse it would more likely be LFA's but I have a feeling that anyone who hung back and said they couldn't do what was asked of them would be in constant danger.

Yes I see that as a bad thing....why should anyone have to live in fear because they have a psychological condition that's just ridiculous.

Sweetleaf wrote:
Seems kind of like blaming the victim......well if only you had acted more normal you wouldn't be sent to the death camp would be come a common phrase.

I don't know if its just life as a guy that I'm speaking from but from my own experience victim is a synonym for mark; being a victim is not a good thing and if bad things happen to you it seems like admitting to victimhood is the worst choice as, at least in my experience in living as a guy, it means that you're weak and deserve to have absolutely everything taken from you by someone stronger.


Well no crap it's not a good thing, but sometimes people end up in that position whether they like it or not...and I really don't think people deserve to have everything taken from them by someone stronger, that's ridiculous since when does life have to be a pissing contest?



techstepgenr8tion
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19 Mar 2012, 5:36 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well no crap it's not a good thing, but sometimes people end up in that position whether they like it or not...and I really don't think people deserve to have everything taken from them by someone stronger, that's ridiculous since when does life have to be a pissing contest?

It is if someone bigger than you wants to inflict that on you.


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19 Mar 2012, 5:39 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well no crap it's not a good thing, but sometimes people end up in that position whether they like it or not...and I really don't think people deserve to have everything taken from them by someone stronger, that's ridiculous since when does life have to be a pissing contest?

It is if someone bigger than you wants to inflict that on you.


In that case I might be screwed, but no there is nothing good about that sort of behavior.....and even then I would be more concerned with simply trying to defend myself... not turning around and treating others that way.



techstepgenr8tion
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19 Mar 2012, 5:51 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
In that case I might be screwed, but no there is nothing good about that sort of behavior.....and even then I would be more concerned with simply trying to defend myself... not turning around and treating others that way.

One absolutely shouldn't turn around and treat others that way, its really more about being able to defend what you believe in. That said though, victimhood is still a spot that's definitively 'at risk'. I suppose if I sound at times like I'm playing it both ways its largely to do with my own battles with awareness of these things as well as how people have historically tended to treat me.


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