English Kids Learning to Speak English Properly

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Tequila
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02 Mar 2012, 8:48 am

Chipshorter wrote:
To build better cultural & historical relationships with the other countries in the Union of the UK & Ireland.


Most of the other Celtic languages aren't even spoken much in their own countries. Irish, for example, is spoken by 3% of the population of the island of Ireland (the most popular Irish-language soap routinely gets viewing figures of less than 80,000 on an island of six million) and is mostly concentrated in specific areas, mostly in the west of Ireland. In fact, a lot of Irish people (even ignoring Ulster's unionists) are sick and tired of having their tax money go to fund the Irish-language lobby and actively resent the language due to having been forced to learn it.



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02 Mar 2012, 9:27 am

Tequila wrote:
Chipshorter wrote:
To build better cultural & historical relationships with the other countries in the Union of the UK & Ireland.


Most of the other Celtic languages aren't even spoken much in their own countries. Irish, for example, is spoken by 3% of the population of the island of Ireland (the most popular Irish-language soap routinely gets viewing figures of less than 80,000 on an island of six million) and is mostly concentrated in specific areas, mostly in the west of Ireland. In fact, a lot of Irish people (even ignoring Ulster's unionists) are sick and tired of having their tax money go to fund the Irish-language lobby and actively resent the language due to having been forced to learn it.


Well there's a trade off between letting minority languages die out or beaning forced to learn them. Personally I prefer that they be learn by choice, so I wouldn't make it a compulsory education subject in schools let them be optional.

oh here's a poem for you, yer woolieback :wink:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grko5JUBoQ4&feature=related[/youtube]


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02 Mar 2012, 11:30 am

Fnord wrote:
Dr. William H. Cosby, Jr., Ed. PhD knows...

While at a multiracial gala dinner in Washington, D.C. commemorating the 50th Anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision, Cosby targeted under-educated lower-income blacks as the source of various social problems. Among his comments:

Quote:
"People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around...the lower economic people are not holding up their end of the deal. These people are not parenting."

And he mocked the way some blacks name their children:

Quote:
"Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids - $500 sneakers for what? And they won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics'...

"With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all that crap, and all of them are in jail... They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English. I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't.' 'Where you is.' ... And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads ... You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!"


Bill Cosby was decrying the state of language among uneducated people, and pointing out that poor language skills are what holds them back.

What's both tragic and weird is that there is a sector of the general population that actually takes pride in their poor language skills, while it simultaneously blames "The Man" for their lack of successful and long-lasting employment.


So, Cosby is basically saying "it's the poor people's own fault that their kids aren't getting anywhere or even end up in jail". It can't possibly be the abysmal state of public schools in poor neighborhoods, or the fact that the parents of these kids didn't get a decent school education either. It must be bad parenting, the system works just fine. If Bill Cosby can make it, everyone can :roll:

But the comment about names really takes the cake. I mean... "Mohammed and all that crap"? Did he really go there in a multicultural country with a large Muslim minority? Wow. Where I live, elderly conservatives spout the same angry rants about parents who name their kids Kevin, Mia, or, ironically, William. Xenophobia is the same wherever you go, but one should think that a minority member who has experienced it firsthand knows better.

Speaking of cake, here is another one of Cosby's conservative bloopers:

Quote:
Looking at the incarcerated, these are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake! And then we all run out and are outraged, "The cops shouldn't have shot him." What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?

Because it's totally justified to shoot someone in the head for stealing a piece of pound cake. Why would a cake thief deserve a fair process?



Tequila
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02 Mar 2012, 11:45 am

Chipshorter wrote:
Well there's a trade off between letting minority languages die out or beaning forced to learn them.


The problem is that the compulsion element, plus the excessive government subsidy, has meant that a lot of Irish people have a lifelong disdain for it. Some people actively enjoy learning Irish though.

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Personally I prefer that they be learn by choice, so I wouldn't make it a compulsory education subject in schools let them be optional.


Should the language be heavily-funded and promoted even if few people wish to speak it? What's the point in holding events in areas where very few people have an interest in Irish, or Scots Gaelic?

If it was me, I'd be promoting it as little as possible.



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02 Mar 2012, 11:59 am

SanityTheorist wrote:
If you want responses I recommend adding some thoughts from it.


Ha, ha. I got responses anyway. :P

Anyway, I find it interesting that the country that gave us the world's presently-dominant language has a lot of people whose English is barely intelligible--a lot of glottal stops in place of consonants, and the people who grow up speaking that way have a very hard time learning to spell, because they don't know which consonant should go in the place of the glottal stop. People who do speak proper English are called "posh."

In other English-speaking countries (like the USA), American English is much more standardized across the country, and, as dumb as our population is overall, we have less trouble learning to spell.


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Chipshorter
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02 Mar 2012, 1:14 pm

Tequila wrote:
The problem is that the compulsion element, plus the excessive government subsidy, has meant that a lot of Irish people have a lifelong disdain for it. Some people actively enjoy learning Irish though.
Like I said before on both sides of the camp there is a no win situation, that's the reason why am advocating the middle ground.

Tequila wrote:
Should the language be heavily-funded and promoted even if few people wish to speak it? What's the point in holding events in areas where very few people have an interest in Irish, or Scots Gaelic?

If it was me, I'd be promoting it as little as possible.


The factor to look at is this would promotion and funding help to increase learning of minority languages? If there's little interest then its pointless to provide over resources then again how do you raise awareness of minority languages without the right resources. Again them events can be used to promote awareness of the language(s) with the possibility of getting people to learn an new language.

I don't see the point of people learning foreign languages went they don't give an interest in the minority languages of there own country.


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Tequila
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02 Mar 2012, 1:42 pm

Chipshorter wrote:
Like I said before on both sides of the camp there is a no win situation, that's the reason why am advocating the middle ground.


I think the problem is that in most of Ireland, the vast majority of people see no need for Irish. It's something they learn in school and see on the road signs and occasionally in the shops and on TG4. It's a minority language, mainly confined to the Gaeltacht (Irish-speaking areas) and for tourists. Some people do have an interest in learning Irish, though. I suspect what would be better is to take Irish out of the educational system but just have courses running for those that want them. And, of course, there are plenty of Irish-language forums on the Internet.

The traditional rural speakers of Irish are declining, but more urban people are picking up the language. In practice, though, the vast majority of Irish in the Republic speak only English, or a few words or sentences of Irish at the most.

And, in fact, I was actually wrong - and being too generous - when I said that Irish speakers account for 3% of the population of the island of Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_the_Irish_language). I was confusing the Republic with the entire island - in fact the real rate of Irish speakers - i.e. those who use it on a daily basis - on the island is probably 1.5% or 2% at the most. So, still a fair few people.

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The factor to look at is this would promotion and funding help to increase learning of minority languages?


It doesn't seem to be working in Ireland, as there isn't a massive revival of Irish. More urban people are taking up the language, but even so, it's still very much a minority. Does Irish deserve all the money being chucked at it if only a few people want to learn it? Also, apparently the old rural and new urban dialects of Irish aren't mutually intelligible anyway.

Quote:
If there's little interest then its pointless to provide over resources then again how do you raise awareness of minority languages without the right resources. Again them events can be used to promote awareness of the language(s) with the possibility of getting people to learn an new language.


Yes, indeed. Quite a few government departments allow people to interact with them in Irish too, although again I think this is a bit pointless when everyone in Ireland speaks English anyway and, like people in Wales, it can be used for obstructionist reasons.

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I don't see the point of people learning foreign languages went they don't give an interest in the minority languages of there own country.


Perhaps because learning a moribund language isn't much use in the wider world?



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02 Mar 2012, 2:10 pm

^^ Ok fair does, do you have any explanation into why the Welsh language is on the raise and also the revivals of Manx Gaelic, and Cornish.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA7hlurc9EQ[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTk3JL01TZ0&feature=related[/youtube]


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02 Mar 2012, 3:27 pm

The issue is that languages and cultures have joined, merged and fractured off since the dawn of time. In the same way species started dying out the instant life started on this planet, human cultures, tribes and traditions have done the same. Some have joined into other traditions or cultures, while others were left by the side of the road. The sooner we get that we can't keep everything alive without being trapped by the past, the sooner we can move forwards.



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02 Mar 2012, 7:32 pm

Chipshorter wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Chipshorter wrote:

To be honest IMHO they should be teaching the Welsh language and other Celt languages of the UK in English schools.


Why?


To build better cultural & historical relationships with the other countries in the Union of the UK & Ireland. Also are you forgetting that England has its own zombie Celtic language, the Cornish language.


Fixed.

Cornish died.The Cumbrian language had more life in it than Cornish did before then end of the 20th century. Outside of academic study, Cumbrian still has more life in it than Cornish, albeit as a dialect rather than a full-blown language. I know for a fact that Cumbrians use Brythonic words on a day-today basis in ordinary situations. I like that, it's more natural - less revivally and artificial.

We're living in the 21st century and most English people can't even learn the language of economically powerful neighbours like France and Germany. You also can't improve historical relationships retrospectively. The modern world is the way it is and some things are irreversible. The best we can do is look towards the future and grant Scotland/Wales/N. Ireland as much cultural and economic autonomy as they wish.


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02 Mar 2012, 8:19 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Cornish died.The Cumbrian language had more life in it than Cornish did before then end of the 20th century. Outside of academic study, Cumbrian still has more life in it than Cornish, albeit as a dialect rather than a full-blown language. I know for a fact that Cumbrians use Brythonic words on a day-today basis in ordinary situations. I like that, it's more natural - less revivally and artificial.


Now let me correct you, Cornish is a living language. UNESCO classifies Cornish as a "critically endangered" language, back in 2002 Cornish got Council of Europe recognition with protected and promoted language status under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. Now about the Cumbric (not Cumbrian which is a dialect) language, it became extinct around about the 11th to 12th century.


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02 Mar 2012, 8:25 pm

Chipshorter wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Cornish died.The Cumbrian language had more life in it than Cornish did before then end of the 20th century. Outside of academic study, Cumbrian still has more life in it than Cornish, albeit as a dialect rather than a full-blown language. I know for a fact that Cumbrians use Brythonic words on a day-today basis in ordinary situations. I like that, it's more natural - less revivally and artificial.


Now let me correct you, Cornish is a living language. UNESCO classifies Cornish as a "critically endangered" language, back in 2002 Cornish got EU recognition with protected and promoted language status under the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. Now about the Cumbric (not Cumbrian which is a dialect) language, it became extinct around about the 11th to 12th century.


The fact that Cornish has been resurrected does not alter the fact that it became extinct in the first place (in the 18th century). Until the very recent revival, no-one was using Cornish words on a day-to-day basis. People have been using Cumbrian dialect words of Celtic origin on a day-to-day basis for the last few centuries.

Languages adapt and some of them die. Revivalism is silly (to me, I'm a staunch modernist). It's a forced attempt to create culture; something about that rubs me up the wrong way. Dialects happen naturally and are vibrant. Revivalism just feels like ethnic snobbery, to me. Like the kind you get in Wales, where ethnically Welsh people from the poor bits of South Wales are seen as 'less Welsh' than the more middle class North Welsh, most of whom don't speak it as their first language, anyway.


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Last edited by puddingmouse on 02 Mar 2012, 8:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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02 Mar 2012, 8:33 pm

Chipshorter wrote:
UNESCO classifies Cornish as a "critically endangered" language


So, when we finally build Jurassic Park for real, then the dinos in it are going to be 'critically endangered'. :P


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02 Mar 2012, 9:31 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
The fact that Cornish has been resurrected does not alter the fact that it became extinct in the first place (in the 18th century).
Its a refuted fact as it was claimed that the last native speaker of Cornish Dolly Pentreath died in 1777 were the true is the last native speaker of Ancient Cornish John Mann died in 1914. Ten years after the revival of the language.

http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Legend- ... story.html


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02 Mar 2012, 9:49 pm

That fact that it had the death of a 'last native speaker', even after the revival, meant it went extinct. Language extinction doesn't mean no speakers, it means 'no native speakers'.

Anyway...why try to revive it at all?


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