There are many bitter and hateful people on this forum

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ooh_choc
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05 Nov 2006, 1:28 am

Some people aren't going to like what they're reading, and will stop a few lines in.

Sometimes I really can't believe the s**t I read on this forum. It really can be quite disgusting. Here's the latest example:

Prof_Pretorius wrote:
Who knows what NT's experience ?? To them, it's not about affection, or connection, it's just another notch on their "Sex" belt. For ASpies, you have to have the affection and respect for the person, and then the sex is great.


A lot of people here had a hard time growing up. A lot of people were treated terribly at school, by those who needed to bolster their self esteem. Then they were subjected to the alienation that comes from their lack of social understanding and skills. I don't blame those people for having emotional scars, as I have my share too.

What does bother me, however, is when I see aspies naively demonising all NTs, while praising aspies as some kind of superior saintly race of people. This might be emotionally self serving, but at the same time, it's also very self destructive. With such a cynical and hateful view of 99% of the human race, your chances of happiness and meaningful relationships plummets.

Sure, they say things which do indeed apply to certain people, but to make these statements as generalisations is shocking.

Pippen says it better than I can:
Pippen wrote:
I'm an NT parent who came here in search of understanding and I must say I've been both surprised and saddened by these attitudes. :( At home we've always shot for a balance between respecting my child's differences and helping him build skills to overcome his challenges. And he goes to a school where differences are pretty well accepted and bullying is not tolerated. Seriously--I took a bullying incident to the principal at 8am and by noon that day it was dealt with and never cropped up again.

I'm still more than a little puzzled about the interests. I know loads of NTs who have interests and hobbies--often quite obsessive--outside the areas of movie stars, sports, etc. These are people who are crazy about things like literature, model rockets, trains, astronomy, history, feral cats, etc. You probably bump into them all the time on online forums if not in real life. I'm NT and very capable socially but for instance back when I had a houseful of very young children my favorite getaway was to spend a few hours in the history section of the university library.

Anyway, I came here in search of understanding and I'm glad I stayed long enough to find there are those here who have a more balanced opinion.


There's nothing I can really say that would convince such people to re-evaluate their views. All I could think of was describing why such views are hard to dispell, and I placed it in a second post so the wall of text wouldn't scare people.



Last edited by ooh_choc on 05 Nov 2006, 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

ooh_choc
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05 Nov 2006, 1:28 am

I'm not really sure where I can begin to convince these people they're wrong. It's very difficult to shatter such views because:
1) They have very strong emotional needs for such a belief (eg self esteem), and will never abandon it without a fight.
2) Once you have these views, you analyse things in terms of these views. Just as a feminist or socialist academic will always have a feminist or socialist reading of Shakespeare, so do bitter aspies see a bitter interpretation of real life.
3) Unrepresentative sample of NTs. They may be surrounded by a lot of angsty adolescents or stupid people. These people usually are horrible, and terribly misrepresent how humans can act. If you went to a school where dumb aspies were somehow in the majority, it would simply be a different battle ground. This is because the horribleness is the result of emotional problems (ie putting people down to make yourself feel better), and from lack of introspection (not understanding why you do stuff). It is nothing unique to NTs. Infact you can actually see aspies doing it, albiet where they aren't in danger of conflict, and that's what this post is about.
4) Isolation and inexperience. A lot of people here aren't hugely social (which, is not usually a problem in itself). It's very easy to have a warped view of a world you have little interaction. I've experienced this personally, as I was very reclusive when I was 13-16.
5) Unrepresentative sample of aspies. When you know someone else with AS, you two instantly have something incommon and to relate to, and naturally, you'll care more for each other. When you come here, ofcourse you're going to be treated well. If you were an NT going to a support site for premature balding, you'd have the same experience.
6) Incompatibility. Many NT people will have difficulty dealing with someone who completely lacks tact. In this case the aspie may be the offensive one, even if it was not intended.

That being said, there are reasons to generalise positively about aspies.
1) They've been treated like s**t, and usually know better than to do so to other people. This doesn't apply to the people they believe are hostile to them, and this chosen subset of people can be grossly incorrect (ie, all NTs).
2) On many social rat races, such as high school popularity, they never had a chance, so never got suckered into them in the first place. This mightn't be true in other competative things, such as who's the better programmer.
3) A similar background (ie, getting crap at school) makes them similar to you. This means you're more likely to relate to them.

Then again, many aspies have emotional problems. Such problems are a common source of nastyness - eg, if you have low self esteem, you may do something to put someone else lower than you. This is mostly the reason for so many aspies here hating NTs (ie, humans in general).



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05 Nov 2006, 1:54 am

I agree. I think if we could just convince ourselves to see each NT on their own terms, no prior assumptions, instead of seeing them as variations of the people who hurt us... Well, I suppose we'd be more accurate, have a better picture of what NTs are really like.

I mean, we Aspies are so very different from each other... NTs are the same way. Being an Aspie is an important part of who we are, but it isn't ALL we are; same with them being NTs.

Regarding NT interests in movie stars, sex, sports, et cetera: Remember that they look at our interests--especially the more restricted ones--as useless. They don't see any point in learning about Routemaster buses or feral cat management or tigers. But, on the whole, we wish they'd just leave us our interests, because we like them and they bring us much joy. Sometimes that's really all a hobby has to do; it doesn't have to be "useful".

Maybe we see NT obsessions the same way they see ours... Maybe we don't understand how they could possibly like such things; maybe we think those things are useless; but they evidently give the NTs a sense of purpose and delight. Isn't that enough?

Some things about being an NT are pretty bad--the gossip and social clawing and whatnot. But that's not all being an NT is about--these people are complex beings just like we are. I think sometimes we look at an NT's socially oriented life and think they're just as odd as they think we are, when they see us stimming or obsessively cramming information into our brains. But Aspies are more than just whatever AS traits we have; sure, AS affects everything we do, but it doesn't control us. Being NT doesn't control an NT, either. They're more than just whatever NT traits they happen to have.

Don't put people into the "NT box" and treat everyone in that "box" equally--because they simply aren't equal. They're as different from each other as any group of Aspies, though they do have an unfortunate tendency to try to be the same. Sometimes you have to look beyond the conformity-seeking surface before you see the real person underneath. I know they say that about autistics; but I think NTs really do put on a mask--an act they hardly know they're putting on--that you have to "get through". The weird part of it is that many NTs actually become their masks after a while.

Treat others how you would want to be treated. Don't get angry at someone without a good reason. Don't judge before you know a person. And let NTs have their strange quirks. Ignore the mean, deliberately ignorant ones; they're not worth your attention.


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05 Nov 2006, 2:29 am

First answer: DEAL with it.

Second answer: My "misconceptions" come from over forty years of experience. You may want to try to slice that up with stuff like I shouldn't be making sweeping generalizations but I have observations and history, not just generalizations.

I'm not giving it up without a fight because I see nothing that invalidates my experience and observation. People are acting more and more like groups of single-minded monsters intent on gobbling up what's left of the world, pushing all other life forms aside, and making it a trash heap whole and entire.



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05 Nov 2006, 2:44 am

I'm not saying that you shouldn't think what you do about people you've met. It may very well be true. I know I've met some real jerks in my lifetime, and a lot of superficial folk who don't seem inclined to amount to much or change the world for the better.

What I do mean is that you shouldn't form an opinion about someone before you've met them. That doesn't mean being naive or deliberately vulnerable; many people are idiots and you have to protect yourself.

I'm just talking about treating everyone with the neutral respect you (should) give any sentient creature, until you know who they are; and waiting until you know them to like or dislike them. You might end up hating 99 out of 100 people; but that way you give that 100th person a chance.

I guess it's just a sense of fairness that I'm looking for... being fair to that 100th person, whoever they are, and not letting the other 99 make you hate a decent human being, maybe one of the few out there.


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Last edited by Callista on 05 Nov 2006, 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Nov 2006, 2:45 am

They want to talk about autistic tendencies, I can talk about NT tendencies.



Callista
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05 Nov 2006, 2:46 am

Well, yeah, there ARE autistic tendencies and NT tendencies. That's what makes us different from each other. I don't see anything prejudicial in talking about differences.


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Pippen
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05 Nov 2006, 2:56 am

I'm an NT parent who came here in search of understanding and I must say I've been both surprised and saddened by these attitudes. :( At home we've always shot for a balance between respecting my child's differences and helping him build skills to overcome his challenges. And he goes to a school where differences are pretty well accepted and bullying is not tolerated. Seriously--I took a bullying incident to the principal at 8am and by noon that day it was dealt with and never cropped up again.

I'm still more than a little puzzled about the interests. I know loads of NTs who have interests and hobbies--often quite obsessive--outside the areas of movie stars, sports, etc. These are people who are crazy about things like literature, model rockets, trains, astronomy, history, feral cats, etc. You probably bump into them all the time on online forums if not in real life. I'm NT and very capable socially but for instance back when I had a houseful of very young children my favorite getaway was to spend a few hours in the history section of the university library.

Anyway, I came here in search of understanding and I'm glad I stayed long enough to find there are those here who have a more balanced opinion.



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05 Nov 2006, 2:57 am

I agree sure alot of people have pre conceived notions about us cause we deviate from the norm. It's simply because they don't understand. You can't really get angry them because whatever people do or say to you is really not about you. It's about whatever issues they're having like insecurities or a closed mind. You should pity these people. Also how is having a cynical mind going to help you develop more loving relationships with others?


Edit: Here's a good article on this issue:

http://home.att.net/~ascaris1/Sad_aspies.html



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05 Nov 2006, 9:26 am

Pippen wrote:
I'm an NT parent who came here in search of understanding and I must say I've been both surprised and saddened by these attitudes. :( At home we've always shot for a balance between respecting my child's differences and helping him build skills to overcome his challenges. And he goes to a school where differences are pretty well accepted and bullying is not tolerated. Seriously--I took a bullying incident to the principal at 8am and by noon that day it was dealt with and never cropped up again.

I'm still more than a little puzzled about the interests. I know loads of NTs who have interests and hobbies--often quite obsessive--outside the areas of movie stars, sports, etc. These are people who are crazy about things like literature, model rockets, trains, astronomy, history, feral cats, etc. You probably bump into them all the time on online forums if not in real life. I'm NT and very capable socially but for instance back when I had a houseful of very young children my favorite getaway was to spend a few hours in the history section of the university library.

Anyway, I came here in search of understanding and I'm glad I stayed long enough to find there are those here who have a more balanced opinion.


For most of my first 25 years of life, I encountered mostly the negative face of the "neurotypical", whatever that was. Many of them aimed to fit me into their mold no matter how much pain it cost me. Some simply aimed for sadism and destruction. I was raised by one of those.

Ma'am, accept the fact that some of us have every reason to feel very negative about neurotypicals and especially about attempts to force people to fit in. The way that children are treated in school even when not "special", I don't know how anyone tolerates that and I don't know that I want to know. The adults don't seem to understand that many of the worst negative things in the world comes from the attempts of some people to control others and rewrite their life scripts. What did you expect, that all of us are sitting in our boxes looking up like puppies hoping to finally be petted and loved?

I don't have a "balanced" opinion of society because I was not given a "balanced" view of it. I lack patience with people who would tell me that I just didn't see it right, I just don't understand, or paranoia is part of my "disorder." "They" had many years to clarify their position. I had many years to try to find anything that negated my thesis.

Take my experience as a warning not to become complacent because an incident has been "taken care of." You could be one of the lucky ones and it could really be true. Or, it could be that one has been taken care of and the others are laughing about it. Or, they could be lying to you. Just take the possibility seriously.



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05 Nov 2006, 10:22 am

All through school I was either called a "space-cadet" or "cloudnine"...I was teased and played pranks on. I couldn't wait to leave.

Then I started dating...and I believed the lines guys fed me...thinking that they meant them, not knowing that most of the time they didn't.

I went to work were I was called "strange" and whispered about...I was normally saved the jobs the other employees hated...

I married, only to find a husband that didn't understand, drank and called me a "monster" among other choice words every weekend...and told me I was incable of raising my child to ever lead a normal life.

In the space of these 39 years I've been sent to more phsycologists than I can count...each with the goal of telling me how I "need" to change to socialize and fit in with a society I no longer really want to be a part of.

I still believe there's good in each and every one...but at times it's really hard not to be judgemental....I think that holds true for alot with similar experiences.

I try not to have cynical and hateful view of 99% of the human race...I just no longer trust 99% of them.


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05 Nov 2006, 10:56 am

The best way to understanding is knowledge and SCIENCE. The truth comes before personal experience. We must continue to understand about NT behaviour as well as our own. I often like to share scientific views without social morality and being politically, correctness get in the way. The other things that get in the way of the truth are Fear, Anger and Greed.



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05 Nov 2006, 11:50 am

ooh_choc,

First off, this doesn't make me bitter or hateful. I try to judge everyone seperately. If I see someone fitting a pattern of an AS person, I can suspect s/he has AS. Otherwise, WHO KNOWS? So I couldn't judge even if I wanted to. I REALLY hope I can have a good seemingly normal life. One like those illustrated in the 50s. I know even the 60s were better than know. Anyway.....

Sorry, but you ARE wrong! That "mistaken" AS belief is FACT! Don't believe??????

PORN!

That ONE word should convince you! NOT that it exists, etc... But the DEGREE, TYPE, TYPES, and TREATMENT!

Not enough?

A moslem cleric recently said western dressed women are "RAPE BAIT"!

How about the fact that Moslems and Hindus force women to dress such that such behaviour is less likely?

Not enough?

DIVORCE!

I could go on like about the exchange student that was sent back because she was so promiscuous and treated boys like TOYS, LITERALLY! You should HEAR how she talked!

How about the fact that nearly 100% of all tested women in the US tested positive for NPV!?!?

I DID attend four "classes" for NTs on this, etc....

I USED to be able to say not all NTs are like this, simply because I felt I was one. OK, so I was a bit off, but I am straight and do have strong drives, etc... NOW, it looks like AS fits.

As for the lines Beenthere said she was fed? I wasn't fed THOSE lines, but fed ones regarding work, finance, etc... I have gotten to where I almost LOATH some praise!

I was EVEN acused of racism because I folded my arms in front of someone. HECK, they both even looked WHITE! I folded my arms even when I DIDN'T know one was arab(IRAQI no less). If I knew about AS at the time, I would have gotten diagnosed, and SUED because of discrimination!

So the part that I seem to be missing does not even help NTs that much! Maybe it is just squelched in AS people because it is so DUMB!

NOW, this might not affect ALL NTs, but it obviously DOES affect a LOT.

BTW "Psychiatrists" have spoken LONG about autistics without even knowing what the word means! Turns out, it has NOTHING to do with retardation. Autism from the greek word autos meaning self! In other wirds, folks, the FIRST observations noted were those affecting ALL current autistics, including aspergers people.

Makes you wonder, huh? Did you know seratonin got its name because it strengthened blood vessels! TRUE! sera(serum, found in blood) tonin(tones, strengthens).

And the guy that suggested washing your hands before operating was LAUGHED AT!

Oh, about those classes? Almost ALL were divorced women and men haters. They didn't undertand men at all. I HAVE seen enough to know what is wrong on both sides.

Maybe "NT"s should look at THEMSELVES FIRST! What is wrong with my ideas about learning? Are they afraid the students will end up "TOO SMART"? Do they simply fear that teachers may get fired because they aren't needed?

Steve



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05 Nov 2006, 12:04 pm

SteveK wrote:
Do they simply fear that teachers may get fired because they aren't needed?


Wooh. That's probably the statement that hits closest to home in this thread. Why are K-5 teachers so INTIMIDATED by students who know the material from their own personal interest in it? That happened to me a lot during those years...

"You can read! Why can you read and not tie your own shoes? Why is your penmanship so awful, but the words that you write down so well-crafted? WHY DON'T YOU WRITE IN CURSIVE?! WHY are you drawing and NOT doing your homework? It's done? Why aren't you turning it in? You're BORED? Your mom and dad want you to be PROMOTED? Tough tittie!

"Here's some coloring sheets. Why are the people PURPLE, and why are you coloring OUTSIDE the lines? I don't care if Andy Warhol does it... How do you know who Andy Warhol is? Why do you color outside the lines on coloring sheets, but inside the lines when you draw your own pictures?

"TALK TO ME! COME ON, TALK! Open your mouth and say something! Oh yes, TURN IN YOUR HOMEWORK.

"STOP SCRATCHING YOUR NOSE AND YOUR ASS!"

Sorry...I needed to rant.

School in general is never very kind to kids with AS. This was back in the 80s and early 90s, when you either had *very* distinguishable autism, or you were completely normal. Teachers just assumed I was a spiteful genius. :)

So, yes, we all have battle wounds, especially related to schooling. Some of us lash out a lot. Some of us are trying our best to not hate those who have done us wrong, but rather attempt to correct them. Others are a fine mix of both. (Put me in that latter box.) It doesn't suit humanity to lump people together with a long list of adjectives, especially regarding personality and attitudes.



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05 Nov 2006, 12:32 pm

I was surprised by your view that there are 'many bitter hateful people at this forum'. There is a vast difference between saying that someone has posted a bitter and hateful post, and calling that person bitter and hateful. I feel that it is an important difference. I would have no qualms at all about anyone objecting to what someone else has written, but as the old saying goes, attack the view, not the person. You don’t know the people here personally and neither do I. I don’t see how you could possibly form a judgment about someone by a few lines they have written, possible taken out of context, which would be making an assessment of their whole personality using very little evidence indeed.

It seems to me that, in essence, you are complaining because you don't agree with someone else's opinion. Has it occurred to you that it could just be a 'letting off of steam'? It is after all a forum for people on the AS spectrum, where people are free to say what they like so long as they don't contravene the rules of the forum. Freedom of speech is a vitally important component of a democracy, the downside being that you may read posts you sometimes do not personally like. Such is life. If you disagree with what someone says, then either ignore it or post a reply telling them so.