Did Jesus or His followers start a new religion?
Joker
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
10 Apr 2012, 9:48 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.
Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?
Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.
The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.
So then... only real Jews believe in the NT?
(I'll assume you poorly phrased that.)
There is currently a partial blindness, but when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives... "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." So they will recognize -- with full clarity -- the Messiah, and thus all Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. But evangelization to the Jews is still necessary until that time, because we don't know when His return will be, so we don't know which Jews will still be alive then. The Gentile church has often run off with Paul's phrase "all Israel will be saved", and thereby just imagined that all Jews throughout history will be saved, and therefore there's no reason to witness to Jews. If that is true, why did Jesus command his followers to witness to Jews?
In my own Lutheran tradition, Israel isn't the political state, but a spiritual one. And so, by our theology, the Church is Israel. While there is nothing wrong with converting Jews, we feel that in between Christ's resurrection and his return, there is no more or less drive to convert all other nations.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Well, you know I disagree very much with that tradition. And it's really a scary one, because, if mistaken in that doctrine, that means the Church is supplanting Israel -- taking away their inheritance. So it's a doctrine that, if one believes it to be wrong -- as I do -- has serious negative implications. It also allows for more anti-Semitism, because it lowers the Jews from there Scriptural status of being God's Chosen People, to being fine to pick on. But picking on the Jews is dangerous, because God many times in Scripture promises severe vengeance on those who do.
We don't believe we're supplanting Israel, as the blessing to Israel was never a matter of race, but of faith. Therefore, we believe that this blessing is connected to anyone who follows Christ - Gentile or Jew.
And I challenge anyone to prove that mainline denominations today who follow this theology are hot beds of Antisemitism.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Well, the Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church USA officially economically "divested from" (boycotted) Israel, and called for their followers to do the same. You're not going to tell me that had nothing to do with those churches not believing the nation of Israel is still under God's protection and blessing, are you? In fact, these churches both deny any biblical significance to modern Israel, even though its restoration was prophesied and God's land grant to Israel was unconditional.
Amos 9:14-15
Quote:
14 “and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
As a methodist I disagree at my church we do no such things that you have stated.
10 Apr 2012, 9:55 pm
Joker wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Well, the Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church USA officially economically "divested from" (boycotted) Israel, and called for their followers to do the same. You're not going to tell me that had nothing to do with those churches not believing the nation of Israel is still under God's protection and blessing, are you? In fact, these churches both deny any biblical significance to modern Israel, even though its restoration was prophesied and God's land grant to Israel was unconditional.
Amos 9:14-15
Amos 9:14-15
Quote:
14 “and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
As a methodist I disagree at my church we do no such things that you have stated.
excerpt:
Quote:
The Kairos Response web site includes the most current information on United Methodist Divestment. A brief summary is below.
In the spring of 2012, United Methodists will vote on a measure to put actions behind their words to help end Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land. This vote will take place at the denomination’s General Conference April 24-May 5, in Tampa, Florida. The General Conference sets policy for the denomination.
In the spring of 2012, United Methodists will vote on a measure to put actions behind their words to help end Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land. This vote will take place at the denomination’s General Conference April 24-May 5, in Tampa, Florida. The General Conference sets policy for the denomination.
http://unitedmethodistdivestment.com/
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
10 Apr 2012, 10:00 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Well, the Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church USA officially economically "divested from" (boycotted) Israel, and called for their followers to do the same. You're not going to tell me that had nothing to do with those churches not believing the nation of Israel is still under God's protection and blessing, are you? In fact, these churches both deny any biblical significance to modern Israel, even though its restoration was prophesied and God's land grant to Israel was unconditional.
Amos 9:14-15
Amos 9:14-15
Quote:
14 “and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
As a methodist I disagree at my church we do no such things that you have stated.
excerpt:
Quote:
The Kairos Response web site includes the most current information on United Methodist Divestment. A brief summary is below.
In the spring of 2012, United Methodists will vote on a measure to put actions behind their words to help end Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land. This vote will take place at the denomination’s General Conference April 24-May 5, in Tampa, Florida. The General Conference sets policy for the denomination.
In the spring of 2012, United Methodists will vote on a measure to put actions behind their words to help end Israel’s occupation of Palestinian land. This vote will take place at the denomination’s General Conference April 24-May 5, in Tampa, Florida. The General Conference sets policy for the denomination.
http://unitedmethodistdivestment.com/
How about you research the untied methodist church we support Israel openly. John Wesley the founder of the church did so also.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,783
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
10 Apr 2012, 10:23 pm
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.
Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?
Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.
The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.
So then... only real Jews believe in the NT?
(I'll assume you poorly phrased that.)
There is currently a partial blindness, but when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives... "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." So they will recognize -- with full clarity -- the Messiah, and thus all Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. But evangelization to the Jews is still necessary until that time, because we don't know when His return will be, so we don't know which Jews will still be alive then. The Gentile church has often run off with Paul's phrase "all Israel will be saved", and thereby just imagined that all Jews throughout history will be saved, and therefore there's no reason to witness to Jews. If that is true, why did Jesus command his followers to witness to Jews?
In my own Lutheran tradition, Israel isn't the political state, but a spiritual one. And so, by our theology, the Church is Israel. While there is nothing wrong with converting Jews, we feel that in between Christ's resurrection and his return, there is no more or less drive to convert all other nations.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Well, you know I disagree very much with that tradition. And it's really a scary one, because, if mistaken in that doctrine, that means the Church is supplanting Israel -- taking away their inheritance. So it's a doctrine that, if one believes it to be wrong -- as I do -- has serious negative implications. It also allows for more anti-Semitism, because it lowers the Jews from there Scriptural status of being God's Chosen People, to being fine to pick on. But picking on the Jews is dangerous, because God many times in Scripture promises severe vengeance on those who do.
We don't believe we're supplanting Israel, as the blessing to Israel was never a matter of race, but of faith. Therefore, we believe that this blessing is connected to anyone who follows Christ - Gentile or Jew.
And I challenge anyone to prove that mainline denominations today who follow this theology are hot beds of Antisemitism.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Well, the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church USA officially economically "divested from" (boycotted) Israel, and called for their followers to do the same. You're not going to tell me that had nothing to do with those churches not believing the nation of Israel is still under God's protection and blessing, are you? In fact, both those churches deny any biblical significance to modern Israel, even though its restoration was prophesied and God's land grant to Israel was unconditional.
Amos 9:14-15
Quote:
14 “and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
Those church bodies chose to take those actions - I believe - out of sympathy for the humanitarian plight of the Palestinian people. But I seriously doubt that Antisemitism played any sort of role in that decision. The same would apply to the other major Lutheran body, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (I'm Missouri Synod, myself) who had taken a similar stance toward Israel, but are hardly a bunch of Jew haters.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
10 Apr 2012, 10:41 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Jesus started a new religion.
Well, his followers did at least. If Christianity were the exact same thing as Judaism... what is with the New Testament?
Spoken like someone who is ignorant of the Old Testament. The New Testament (also called "New Covenant") doctrines change nothing which the Old Testament didn't prophesy God would change, in Jer 31's "new covenant" for example. All of the writers of the New Testament were religious Jews who, judging by their writings, believed everything Jesus said, and all showed immense respect for Him and His authority over the Church in their writings. All of them also show how Jesus and His teachings derive from and seamlessly fulfill the Old Testament. There just is no real break to speak of -- the two Testaments might as well be one, except that the New marks the beginning of the prophesied next phase of God's seamless plan.
The New Covenant was the next phase in a plan that was from eternity past -- it was not a change of plan. Many pairs of types and shadows joining the two Testaments further show this.
So then... only real Jews believe in the NT?
(I'll assume you poorly phrased that.)
There is currently a partial blindness, but when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives... "They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." So they will recognize -- with full clarity -- the Messiah, and thus all Israel will be saved when Jesus returns. But evangelization to the Jews is still necessary until that time, because we don't know when His return will be, so we don't know which Jews will still be alive then. The Gentile church has often run off with Paul's phrase "all Israel will be saved", and thereby just imagined that all Jews throughout history will be saved, and therefore there's no reason to witness to Jews. If that is true, why did Jesus command his followers to witness to Jews?
In my own Lutheran tradition, Israel isn't the political state, but a spiritual one. And so, by our theology, the Church is Israel. While there is nothing wrong with converting Jews, we feel that in between Christ's resurrection and his return, there is no more or less drive to convert all other nations.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Well, you know I disagree very much with that tradition. And it's really a scary one, because, if mistaken in that doctrine, that means the Church is supplanting Israel -- taking away their inheritance. So it's a doctrine that, if one believes it to be wrong -- as I do -- has serious negative implications. It also allows for more anti-Semitism, because it lowers the Jews from there Scriptural status of being God's Chosen People, to being fine to pick on. But picking on the Jews is dangerous, because God many times in Scripture promises severe vengeance on those who do.
We don't believe we're supplanting Israel, as the blessing to Israel was never a matter of race, but of faith. Therefore, we believe that this blessing is connected to anyone who follows Christ - Gentile or Jew.
And I challenge anyone to prove that mainline denominations today who follow this theology are hot beds of Antisemitism.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Well, the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church USA officially economically "divested from" (boycotted) Israel, and called for their followers to do the same. You're not going to tell me that had nothing to do with those churches not believing the nation of Israel is still under God's protection and blessing, are you? In fact, both those churches deny any biblical significance to modern Israel, even though its restoration was prophesied and God's land grant to Israel was unconditional.
Amos 9:14-15
Quote:
14 “and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
Those church bodies chose to take those actions - I believe - out of sympathy for the humanitarian plight of the Palestinian people. But I seriously doubt that Antisemitism played any sort of role in that decision. The same would apply to the other major Lutheran body, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (I'm Missouri Synod, myself) who had taken a similar stance toward Israel, but are hardly a bunch of Jew haters.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Thank you Kraichgauer the fact is yes the methodist church does so out of sympathy and plight of the Palestinian people. But we are not Jew haters at all in fact we support the state of Israel with a passion.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,783
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
10 Apr 2012, 10:45 pm
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
We don't believe we're supplanting Israel, as the blessing to Israel was never a matter of race, but of faith. Therefore, we believe that this blessing is connected to anyone who follows Christ - Gentile or Jew.
And I challenge anyone to prove that mainline denominations today who follow this theology are hot beds of Antisemitism.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
What about people who keep the Commandments. One does not need Joshua for that.
According to the Rabbis anyone who follows the seven Noah Laws is golden. They will have a part in The World to Come.
ruveyn
I respect your beliefs, and your right to have them.
Wouldn't obeying the laws of Noah, though, include most Christians in "The World to Come?"
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
11 Apr 2012, 6:14 am
Ragtime, sorry I'm not settled anough to go into the depths of this.
It is clear to both of us that John defines what he means by Logos in the following verses of John Ch1. Paul again, takes it up In Colossians Ch.1. My question is why did he use the word Logos? Some might argue he had taken the concept of Demiurge and used it for Christianity. One problem would have been the multiplicity of beliefs about the Demiurge. My point is John has used the world Logos and in so doing separated Christianity from Judaism. I do not think you can refer to the Alexandrian Jews to support your view. I would need to go into a lot of detail to take this further.
11 Apr 2012, 9:25 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
I respect your beliefs, and your right to have them.
Wouldn't obeying the laws of Noah, though, include most Christians in "The World to Come?"
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Of course. And a lot of non-Christians too. Including Jews (613 commandments contain Noah Laws as a subset) and honorable decent atheists. Noah Laws do not require a belief in God. Only a non-belief in idols. The Noah Laws can be followed by any decent rational human being. Whether or not they believe in the God Thing.
ruveyn
11 Apr 2012, 9:34 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Well, the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church USA officially economically "divested from" (boycotted) Israel, and called for their followers to do the same. You're not going to tell me that had nothing to do with those churches not believing the nation of Israel is still under God's protection and blessing, are you? In fact, both those churches deny any biblical significance to modern Israel, even though its restoration was prophesied and God's land grant to Israel was unconditional.
Amos 9:14-15
Amos 9:14-15
Quote:
14 “and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
Those church bodies chose to take those actions - I believe - out of sympathy for the humanitarian plight of the Palestinian people. But I seriously doubt that Antisemitism played any sort of role in that decision. The same would apply to the other major Lutheran body, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (I'm Missouri Synod, myself) who had taken a similar stance toward Israel, but are hardly a bunch of Jew haters.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
"Sympathy" for evil makes evil sympathizers. The Palestinians' "plight" is that they continually set off bombs in, and launch rockets into, the Jewish-populated parts of Israel, and call daily for Jewish death and for Israel to be utterly destroyed.
Well, God knows the Church leaders' hearts. I only know their actions, by which Jesus said we would know whether people are good or evil.
Quote:
15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
(From Matt 7)
Because they come in sheep's clothing, their appearance -- their outward identities -- speak against the idea that they are evil. Therefore, it is only their works that reveal who they really are. A good example of these wolves in sheep's clothing would be The Catholic Church in the first part of the twentieth century, who turned a blind eye during the Holocaust.
I notice you keep referring to "a bunch of Jew haters" and "a hot-bed of anti-Semitism", as if anti-Semitism is always incredibly overt, bold, and obvious. There is no reason it would always be so. The blind-eye turning and economic divestment are hatred by inaction, or ceasing of action, and so are more subtle than the Nazi soldiers' outlets of their anti-Semitism.
The leadership in the Christian Church at large (though there are exceptions) shows through their funding actions that they adore the Palestinians and their cause to persecute, murder, and displace the Jews in Israel, while these Church leaders give, when anything, only lip service to the Jews.
Gen 12:2-3:
Quote:
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
I am a Christian who is very glad to be one, and to talk about biblical Christianity favorably. But I know and will admit that there is plenty of anti-Semitism in the Christian Church, just like there is anywhere else in the world. Why? Because most of the Church, like the world, stays away from serious, in-depth Bible study, preferring instead feel-good, superficial sermons based more on emotionalism than truth.
And again, this idea that most evil is overt is just not biblically accurate:
2 Cor 11:13-15:
Quote:
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
It is not a coincidence that Jesus called the religious leaders of His day "of your father the devil", and backed that claim up with saying that is because they lie, and in the capacity of being liars they become Satan's followers, thusly:
John 8:44:
Quote:
“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
As regards the subtlest of anti-Semitism, in Matthew 25, Jesus refers to His own harsh judgment against and punishment of passive disservice by Gentiles to Jews who receive their Messiah during the Tribulation period:
Quote:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations [the word meaning Gentiles] will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
32 All the nations [the word meaning Gentiles] will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Last edited by Ragtime on 11 Apr 2012, 9:55 am, edited 9 times in total.
11 Apr 2012, 9:42 am
Ragtime wrote:
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
[/quote]
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
And you are so f*cking righteous because you can quote scriptural blather ad nuaseum?
Both you and the Devil can quote scripture.
Tell me, bubba, have you fed the hungry and clothed the naked lately? Have you invited the homeless to come in your house and live with you? Have you sold all that have have and given it away to the needy? Do you pray to your Heavenly Father in a closet?
Sure you have (sarcasm/off)
ruveuyn
11 Apr 2012, 9:58 am
ruveyn wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
And you are so f*cking righteous because you can quote scriptural blather ad nuaseum?
Both you and the Devil can quote scripture.
Tell me, bubba, have you fed the hungry and clothed the naked lately? Have you invited the homeless to come in your house and live with you? Have you sold all that have have and given it away to the needy? Do you pray to your Heavenly Father in a closet?
Sure you have (sarcasm/off)
ruveuyn
I'm not on any high horse, I'm just explaining my beliefs. I wouldn't even be included in "the righteous" referred to in the verse, because at the time period of the Tribulation I'll already be in Heaven due to the righteousness of the Messiah.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
11 Apr 2012, 10:33 am
ruveyn wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Jesus affirming to a Gentile that both He and His message are Jewish.
In which case, The Trinity is bogus. The Torah is clear on one thing: God is One not many.
These address the plurality of God in the Torah:
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-plural-nouns-pronouns-verbs-adverbs.htm
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-yachid-vs-echad.htm
http://christianthinktank.com/trin02.html
And addressing your claim of God using "the royal 'we' ":
http://www.freewebs.com/trinitytruth/oldtestamentimplications.htm
ruveyn wrote:
It is also clear on another thing: God is not a man, God is not flesh, God is completely other.
ruveyn
ruveyn
Even Jesus said "God is spirit", but also claimed to be Him. God is spirit, but can also become flesh if He choose to: He is all-powerful.
Isaiah 9:6-7:
Quote:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
A child is born to the people of Israel, and he will be "The mighty God", and his government will have no end, and YHVH will do this in His zeal.
_________________
Christianity is different than Judaism only in people's minds -- not in the Bible.
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,783
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
11 Apr 2012, 11:23 am
Ragtime wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Well, the United Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church USA officially economically "divested from" (boycotted) Israel, and called for their followers to do the same. You're not going to tell me that had nothing to do with those churches not believing the nation of Israel is still under God's protection and blessing, are you? In fact, both those churches deny any biblical significance to modern Israel, even though its restoration was prophesied and God's land grant to Israel was unconditional.
Amos 9:14-15
Amos 9:14-15
Quote:
14 “and I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them.
They will plant vineyards and drink their wine;
they will make gardens and eat their fruit.
15 I will plant Israel in their own land,
never again to be uprooted
from the land I have given them,”
says the LORD your God.
Those church bodies chose to take those actions - I believe - out of sympathy for the humanitarian plight of the Palestinian people. But I seriously doubt that Antisemitism played any sort of role in that decision. The same would apply to the other major Lutheran body, The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (I'm Missouri Synod, myself) who had taken a similar stance toward Israel, but are hardly a bunch of Jew haters.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
"Sympathy" for evil makes evil sympathizers. The Palestinians' "plight" is that they continually set off bombs in, and launch rockets into, the Jewish-populated parts of Israel, and call daily for Jewish death and for Israel to be utterly destroyed.
Well, God knows the Church leaders' hearts. I only know their actions, by which Jesus said we would know whether people are good or evil.
Quote:
15 Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
(From Matt 7)
Because they come in sheep's clothing, their appearance -- their outward identities -- speak against the idea that they are evil. Therefore, it is only their works that reveal who they really are. A good example of these wolves in sheep's clothing would be The Catholic Church in the first part of the twentieth century, who turned a blind eye during the Holocaust.
I notice you keep referring to "a bunch of Jew haters" and "a hot-bed of anti-Semitism", as if anti-Semitism is always incredibly overt, bold, and obvious. There is no reason it would always be so. The blind-eye turning and economic divestment are hatred by inaction, or ceasing of action, and so are more subtle than the Nazi soldiers' outlets of their anti-Semitism.
The leadership in the Christian Church at large (though there are exceptions) shows through their funding actions that they adore the Palestinians and their cause to persecute, murder, and displace the Jews in Israel, while these Church leaders give, when anything, only lip service to the Jews.
Gen 12:2-3:
Quote:
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”
I am a Christian who is very glad to be one, and to talk about biblical Christianity favorably. But I know and will admit that there is plenty of anti-Semitism in the Christian Church, just like there is anywhere else in the world. Why? Because most of the Church, like the world, stays away from serious, in-depth Bible study, preferring instead feel-good, superficial sermons based more on emotionalism than truth.
And again, this idea that most evil is overt is just not biblically accurate:
2 Cor 11:13-15:
Quote:
13 For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
It is not a coincidence that Jesus called the religious leaders of His day "of your father the devil", and backed that claim up with saying that is because they lie, and in the capacity of being liars they become Satan's followers, thusly:
John 8:44:
Quote:
“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.”
As regards the subtlest of anti-Semitism, in Matthew 25, Jesus refers to His own harsh judgment against and punishment of passive disservice by Gentiles to Jews who receive their Messiah during the Tribulation period:
Quote:
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 All the nations [the word meaning Gentiles] will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
32 All the nations [the word meaning Gentiles] will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Acts of terrorism are committed against Israel by fanatics who are of Palestinian ethnicity, but it's completely wrong to make all Palestinians guilty for these acts. The Palestinian people are not our enemies, and are not Israel's enemies.
And in regard to the "Tribulation" - we Lutherans and other Mainline Protestants believe in a single resurrection of the dead, and one final judgement, but not in any rapture or in any millenialistic theology. Rather, we believe that the "Thousand Years" is the here and now - an indeterminate period of time between Christ's resurrection and his second coming. And the Kingdom Of God during this "Thousand Years" is to be found among true believers.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 47,783
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
11 Apr 2012, 11:30 am
ruveyn wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
[
Even Jesus said "God is spirit", but also claimed to be Him. God is spirit, but can also become flesh if He choose to: He is all-powerful.
.
Even Jesus said "God is spirit", but also claimed to be Him. God is spirit, but can also become flesh if He choose to: He is all-powerful.
.
A "spirit" that took a hot dump once a day. Tell me, son, did Jesus extrude "holy sh*t" from His rectum?
ruveyn
Certainly - we believe Jesus was of dual nature. As both God and man, he had all the natural plumbing as anyone else, and thus took as many "holy s**ts" as needed.
But you know, according to North Korean lore, Kim Jung Ill never defecated or urinated, along with being born atop a holy mountain. And this is coming from an atheistic state!
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
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