Anti-Gay Campaign Targets EA
MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
12 Apr 2012, 10:28 pm
Vexcalibur wrote:
Quote:
Vexcalibur, how do you de-bias then a biased culture?
I don't find this question relevant and I don't think you have made a justification to your argument that it is.Before I continue this discussion, I need to ask you, MarketAndChurch, Do you think consensual sexual acts such as Kissing, Oral Sex, Anal Sex and etc between two people of the same gender, taking the appropriate hygiene measures is morally wrong? Yes or No. This answer is key to actually understanding what is it that you are trying to say, and I guess that you should be able to easily reply Yes or No.
Preface
I won't answer a simple yes or no because the way you, and every person on WP, and the media, and society, frame the issue is wrong, and assume many untruths. This isn't about love, or about benefits, or about what you can do in the privacy of your bedroom, since you can already get those things without marriage.
The Bible
The bible says directly that a man shall not have sex with another man in the same way he has sex with a woman. It says the same of women, but only indirectly.
Secular Code Of Ethics
I don't care about hygiene, that is a secular way to frame the appropriateness or morality of an issue is to ask whether it is healthy or not.
My view is simple: If you are gay, then you are gay, and God made you that way, and that is the end of that. And the same applies to straights. But the vast majority of people, I believe, constitute that large middle, which happen to behave in ways that are a function of gender, and play gender roles that are largely societal constructs. If societal bias is male-female, then everything, in the way we arrange ourselves, to the story's we tell, to the music we make, etc. revolves around that fundamental notion. If we return to our normal pagan roots, pre-Judaism, then a good many people who would have otherwise practice heterosexuality will not do so strictly.
My Sexuality
I am, however, after exploring my sexuality, bisexual by nature, but I'm a practicing heterosexual, for most of my life that is, so that makes me heterosexual I guess, because your actions and what you do most often matter most.
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
12 Apr 2012, 11:49 pm
AstroGeek wrote:
And finally, it is not only sexual habits which the left feels should be left to people's own business. What clothes they where, what friends they have, what content they look at online, (in some cases) what substances they take into their body, what religion they follow are all things that the left feels is not the business of the state. Recently some groups in Canada have taken to altering the old quote "The state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation" to "The state has no place in the hard-drives of the nation."
This is all perfectly consistent with the other things which you pointed out which the left will meddle with. These sorts of freedoms and private issues have no effect on the well-being of others. However, driving an SUV emits extra CO2, which contributes to climate change, which will negatively effect the well being of others. Urban sprawl, in addition to requiring more driving, also requires the upkeep of more roads and more civil infrastructure. This means greater strain on the public purse. Which means either fewer services or higher taxes. Both effect the well being of the greater populace.
This is all perfectly consistent with the other things which you pointed out which the left will meddle with. These sorts of freedoms and private issues have no effect on the well-being of others. However, driving an SUV emits extra CO2, which contributes to climate change, which will negatively effect the well being of others. Urban sprawl, in addition to requiring more driving, also requires the upkeep of more roads and more civil infrastructure. This means greater strain on the public purse. Which means either fewer services or higher taxes. Both effect the well being of the greater populace.
The clothes you wear is your business, but is also largely influenced by others around, and if you live somewhere where there are dress codes, just as there in some places speech codes, you respect those codes or leave for somewhere where those codes don't exist.
The state has been intrusive on what friends you make, even in the United States with jim crow laws, but that is not an issue in modern life in any western country.
What content you look at online isn't a left-right divide either… There are perhaps even more feminists and women in general who would prefer porn banned then there are those who support it. The GOP has stopped SOPA & PIPA, and major Democrats have pushed alternative bills. You can find both parties for and against online freedom. I would like you to just name one other realm in modern life where the Left dominates in its push for liberalizing that. Or even better, apart from the Right's position on issues surrounding Abortion and Homosexuality,what is one thing that the Right has stopped you from doing?
It is no strain on the Public purse if it is from the road-going public that most of your tax dollars come from. The road going public and the industries they prop up deserve 10 fold the attention they are getting, especially when the entitlement state, government services are so dependent on them and their auto use. From the auto industry alone, we get 135 billion in taxes. That doesn't include what the state then continues to collect via DEQ, DMV license, taxes, and fees, all the car services that maintain cars, and what cars then do for the public and private economy in transporting goods and services, be it from the port to distribution centers, or a shuttle from the airport to a hotel, etc. Urban sprawl built the middle class.
Fine, you may believe that about the SUV, but that is exactly my point. You are not for liberty, and certainly not for liberty at the expense of equality. You cannot have 100% liberty and 100% equality, you give up more of one when you pursue the other. And that is fine, life is a balancing act, but it is dishonest to say that the left is for Liberty, when just about every policy it has pushed has been to push or shape our lives and the way we live, and enforced by the rule of law.
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
13 Apr 2012, 5:52 am
MarketAndChurch wrote:
The state has been intrusive on what friends you make, even in the United States with jim crow laws, but that is not an issue in modern life in any western country.
And the Jim Crow laws were wrong. They should never have existed.
Quote:
What content you look at online isn't a left-right divide either… There are perhaps even more feminists and women in general who would prefer porn banned then there are those who support it. The GOP has stopped SOPA & PIPA, and major Democrats have pushed alternative bills. You can find both parties for and against online freedom. I would like you to just name one other realm in modern life where the Left dominates in its push for liberalizing that. Or even better, apart from the Right's position on issues surrounding Abortion and Homosexuality,what is one thing that the Right has stopped you from doing?
First of all, the Democrats are not left wing. I consider them to be centre-right, because that's what their positions correspond to by the standards of Canada and Europe. I just want to make that clear. Now, some parts of the left support the legalisation of prostitution and drug use. I'm not sure that I agree, but nonetheless there are people on the left who say that. The right generally would oppose that. The left generally does not support a military draft, whereas, in the USA at least, the right historically has. The left usually support freedom of cultural expression among minorities, whereas often the right is assimilationist. Of course there are exceptions to all of these things on both sides.
Quote:
It is no strain on the Public purse if it is from the road-going public that most of your tax dollars come from. The road going public and the industries they prop up deserve 10 fold the attention they are getting, especially when the entitlement state, government services are so dependent on them and their auto use. From the auto industry alone, we get 135 billion in taxes. That doesn't include what the state then continues to collect via DEQ, DMV license, taxes, and fees, all the car services that maintain cars, and what cars then do for the public and private economy in transporting goods and services, be it from the port to distribution centers, or a shuttle from the airport to a hotel, etc. Urban sprawl built the middle class.
My city would require car use whether it sprawled so much or not. However, do to the Canadian winter, the freezing and thawing makes and utter mess of the roads. Every year they have to be repaired. There are an awful lot of roads to repair because of the urban sprawl, and a low population density, so the city must therefore pay a higher tax rate than the surrounding communities.
Quote:
Fine, you may believe that about the SUV, but that is exactly my point. You are not for liberty, and certainly not for liberty at the expense of equality. You cannot have 100% liberty and 100% equality, you give up more of one when you pursue the other. And that is fine, life is a balancing act, but it is dishonest to say that the left is for Liberty, when just about every policy it has pushed has been to push or shape our lives and the way we live, and enforced by the rule of law.
I never claimed to be for liberty. I claim to be for human well-being. In many, many cases that will involve liberty. But not all cases.
Oodain
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
13 Apr 2012, 8:33 am
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Quote:
Vexcalibur, how do you de-bias then a biased culture?
I don't find this question relevant and I don't think you have made a justification to your argument that it is.Before I continue this discussion, I need to ask you, MarketAndChurch, Do you think consensual sexual acts such as Kissing, Oral Sex, Anal Sex and etc between two people of the same gender, taking the appropriate hygiene measures is morally wrong? Yes or No. This answer is key to actually understanding what is it that you are trying to say, and I guess that you should be able to easily reply Yes or No.
Preface
I won't answer a simple yes or no because the way you, and every person on WP, and the media, and society, frame the issue is wrong, and assume many untruths. This isn't about love, or about benefits, or about what you can do in the privacy of your bedroom, since you can already get those things without marriage.
The Bible
The bible says directly that a man shall not have sex with another man in the same way he has sex with a woman. It says the same of women, but only indirectly.
Secular Code Of Ethics
I don't care about hygiene, that is a secular way to frame the appropriateness or morality of an issue is to ask whether it is healthy or not.
My view is simple: If you are gay, then you are gay, and God made you that way, and that is the end of that. And the same applies to straights. But the vast majority of people, I believe, constitute that large middle, which happen to behave in ways that are a function of gender, and play gender roles that are largely societal constructs. If societal bias is male-female, then everything, in the way we arrange ourselves, to the story's we tell, to the music we make, etc. revolves around that fundamental notion. If we return to our normal pagan roots, pre-Judaism, then a good many people who would have otherwise practice heterosexuality will not do so strictly.
My Sexuality
I am, however, after exploring my sexuality, bisexual by nature, but I'm a practicing heterosexual, for most of my life that is, so that makes me heterosexual I guess, because your actions and what you do most often matter most.
yes its everyone else right?
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
13 Apr 2012, 2:07 pm
Oodain wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Quote:
Vexcalibur, how do you de-bias then a biased culture?
I don't find this question relevant and I don't think you have made a justification to your argument that it is.Before I continue this discussion, I need to ask you, MarketAndChurch, Do you think consensual sexual acts such as Kissing, Oral Sex, Anal Sex and etc between two people of the same gender, taking the appropriate hygiene measures is morally wrong? Yes or No. This answer is key to actually understanding what is it that you are trying to say, and I guess that you should be able to easily reply Yes or No.
Preface
I won't answer a simple yes or no because the way you, and every person on WP, and the media, and society, frame the issue is wrong, and assume many untruths. This isn't about love, or about benefits, or about what you can do in the privacy of your bedroom, since you can already get those things without marriage.
The Bible
The bible says directly that a man shall not have sex with another man in the same way he has sex with a woman. It says the same of women, but only indirectly.
Secular Code Of Ethics
I don't care about hygiene, that is a secular way to frame the appropriateness or morality of an issue is to ask whether it is healthy or not.
My view is simple: If you are gay, then you are gay, and God made you that way, and that is the end of that. And the same applies to straights. But the vast majority of people, I believe, constitute that large middle, which happen to behave in ways that are a function of gender, and play gender roles that are largely societal constructs. If societal bias is male-female, then everything, in the way we arrange ourselves, to the story's we tell, to the music we make, etc. revolves around that fundamental notion. If we return to our normal pagan roots, pre-Judaism, then a good many people who would have otherwise practice heterosexuality will not do so strictly.
My Sexuality
I am, however, after exploring my sexuality, bisexual by nature, but I'm a practicing heterosexual, for most of my life that is, so that makes me heterosexual I guess, because your actions and what you do most often matter most.
yes its everyone else right?
He doesnt speak for me.
MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
13 Apr 2012, 5:23 pm
Oodain wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Quote:
Vexcalibur, how do you de-bias then a biased culture?
I don't find this question relevant and I don't think you have made a justification to your argument that it is.Before I continue this discussion, I need to ask you, MarketAndChurch, Do you think consensual sexual acts such as Kissing, Oral Sex, Anal Sex and etc between two people of the same gender, taking the appropriate hygiene measures is morally wrong? Yes or No. This answer is key to actually understanding what is it that you are trying to say, and I guess that you should be able to easily reply Yes or No.
Preface
I won't answer a simple yes or no because the way you, and every person on WP, and the media, and society, frame the issue is wrong, and assume many untruths. This isn't about love, or about benefits, or about what you can do in the privacy of your bedroom, since you can already get those things without marriage.
The Bible
The bible says directly that a man shall not have sex with another man in the same way he has sex with a woman. It says the same of women, but only indirectly.
Secular Code Of Ethics
I don't care about hygiene, that is a secular way to frame the appropriateness or morality of an issue is to ask whether it is healthy or not.
My view is simple: If you are gay, then you are gay, and God made you that way, and that is the end of that. And the same applies to straights. But the vast majority of people, I believe, constitute that large middle, which happen to behave in ways that are a function of gender, and play gender roles that are largely societal constructs. If societal bias is male-female, then everything, in the way we arrange ourselves, to the story's we tell, to the music we make, etc. revolves around that fundamental notion. If we return to our normal pagan roots, pre-Judaism, then a good many people who would have otherwise practice heterosexuality will not do so strictly.
My Sexuality
I am, however, after exploring my sexuality, bisexual by nature, but I'm a practicing heterosexual, for most of my life that is, so that makes me heterosexual I guess, because your actions and what you do most often matter most.
yes its everyone else right?
Most everyone else. There is a sizable portion of the Gay community who also agree that sexuality is not fixed, a slightly larger portion of non-gay, gay advocates who agree that sexuality is not fixed, but they, again, are in the minority. And as far as those who oppose gay marriage is concerned, they don't even think the Gay is gay to begin with, that gays are corrupted or have something wrong with their inner workings that can be easily righted. I suppose those who argue that Gays are the work of the devil and if we just purify them via church and camps that can cleanse them clean don't believe that sexuality is fixed, and that the devil or some kind of curse can alter ones sexuality?
The discussion is shaped by the left and the right(and the platform that the media then gives them to shape the discussion, and both have it wrong, and for different reasons.
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
Oodain
Veteran
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,
13 Apr 2012, 6:36 pm
this idscussion is only shaped by people poking their nose where it doesnt belong.
frankly my above comment had nothing to do with the content, that is except for the first comment where you clearly state that everyone frames the issue wrongly, from that came my above comment.
you say sexuality isnt fixed i say i dont care, it doesnt impart on the argument.
_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland
13 Apr 2012, 8:34 pm
Oodain wrote:
this idscussion is only shaped by people poking their nose where it doesnt belong.
frankly my above comment had nothing to do with the content, that is except for the first comment where you clearly state that everyone frames the issue wrongly, from that came my above comment.
you say sexuality isnt fixed i say i dont care, it doesnt impart on the argument.
frankly my above comment had nothing to do with the content, that is except for the first comment where you clearly state that everyone frames the issue wrongly, from that came my above comment.
you say sexuality isnt fixed i say i dont care, it doesnt impart on the argument.
And I say it does, whether you care or not.
The assumed assumption by both gay advocates and many who oppose it is that the sexuality of people are fixed. If that is the case, then gay marriage will effect no one other then Gays. The notion of what is an acceptable living arrangement and what is not is totally meaningless if straights are fixed, and will always be with their own, and gays are fixed, and will always only be with their own.
If we are not fixed, which we are not, and history pays testimony to that, and the normalcy of homosexual behavior by gays and non-gays alike, then we have a problem, which I have stated above.
_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.
14 Apr 2012, 12:14 am
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Most everyone else. There is a sizable portion of the Gay community who also agree that sexuality is not fixed,
What's the relevance of it being fixed or not?
Spoilers: It doesn't have any:
Vexcalibur wrote:
If you don't think homosexual sex is wrong: Then who cares sexuality is fixed or not? If sexuality isn't fixed, the "worst case scenario" is that more people will choose to have gay sex. It would be their choice, and there is nothing wrong with homosexual sex.
If you think homosexual sex is wrong: Then the reason you oppose to homosexual advocates is not because you think sexuality is not fixed, but because you think homosexuality as a whole is wrong. If you thought sexuality is not fixed, you would still hate homosexual sex. Thus you should be explaining your reasons why homosexuality as a whole is wrong, rather than divert the discussion about how sexuality is not fixed.
If you think homosexual sex is wrong: Then the reason you oppose to homosexual advocates is not because you think sexuality is not fixed, but because you think homosexuality as a whole is wrong. If you thought sexuality is not fixed, you would still hate homosexual sex. Thus you should be explaining your reasons why homosexuality as a whole is wrong, rather than divert the discussion about how sexuality is not fixed.
_________________
.
14 Apr 2012, 7:59 pm
MarketAndChurch wrote:
Oodain wrote:
this idscussion is only shaped by people poking their nose where it doesnt belong.
frankly my above comment had nothing to do with the content, that is except for the first comment where you clearly state that everyone frames the issue wrongly, from that came my above comment.
you say sexuality isnt fixed i say i dont care, it doesnt impart on the argument.
frankly my above comment had nothing to do with the content, that is except for the first comment where you clearly state that everyone frames the issue wrongly, from that came my above comment.
you say sexuality isnt fixed i say i dont care, it doesnt impart on the argument.
And I say it does, whether you care or not.
The assumed assumption by both gay advocates and many who oppose it is that the sexuality of people are fixed. If that is the case, then gay marriage will effect no one other then Gays. The notion of what is an acceptable living arrangement and what is not is totally meaningless if straights are fixed, and will always be with their own, and gays are fixed, and will always only be with their own.
If we are not fixed, which we are not, and history pays testimony to that, and the normalcy of homosexual behavior by gays and non-gays alike, then we have a problem, which I have stated above.
Whether sexuality is fixed is irrelevant because increasing the normalcy of heterosexual behaviour isn't a problem.
| Similar Topics | |
|---|---|
| Widespread anti-AfD protests in Germany |
20 Jan 2024, 11:08 pm |
| Large anti-Orban march in Budapest |
07 Apr 2024, 11:00 am |
| George RR Martin Calls out Anti-Fans |
10 Feb 2024, 10:33 am |
