People who like maths here? Answer me this?

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NateRiver
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14 Apr 2012, 5:01 am

How can anyone like maths?

I hate maths, I don't even find it a "clever" subject because the biggest idiots can be good at it. You can go so far with just learning some steps and concepts, and bingo you're done. You don' even need to be clever for maths;however with things like science you do. I don't even see how maths is logical because even if you go by what the question wants and follow the correct logical procedure, it can still be wrong. If you go by the standard logic of the question of what it's asking you to literally do, you can still get the answer wrong.

Simply, because you didn't do the question in a "certain way". If mathematical concepts are so logical and can be applied to all types of question logically for everyone to understand, how come people still get the question even though they did everything that appeared logical to the concept and them, but still can get an answer wrong? How does that make maths logical itself? If maths can't be explained correctly so everyone can understand maths in written language LIKE SCIENCE.


Then, where is the logic? How do you understand a maths question knowing you're not going to get the answer wrong?Then someone who is good at maths can say you don't have "common sense." Most people I know who LOVE algebra don't even know what the distributive law is although do it all the time. So, they're logical right? Maths is a monkeys games and if you learn steps, concepts and see the same question you did before written in a different way in a question then BINGO. You can be stupid and clever at the same time which pisses me off. You can learn maths without even learning most laws behind all the concepts you're doing which annoys me too.

Arnt the laws meant to = the logic? If you can do maths without some laws then arnt you going against logic? You can just learn the steps of these laws but not the logic behind it? I'm the most straight-forward, logical, analytical person, tbh. I can analyze shakespeare at a university level but I can't figure how most variables in equations correspond to the next solving of the equation? Maybe, it's because they don't and they're so unclear? Shakespeare is logical, for example he does this to create that. In maths, it's there is that can be = 6 but can also be 5 but when you take them away it's 1;however that's wrong because you forgot this and that although now I'm so confused because the variables have been swapped over?

I've tried my best to like it, I've tried my best to be good at it and I even got a tutor and have looked at various websites to explain the mathematical logic but it never works. Maths questions, maths laws are all contradictory and I hate it. So, how can I like mathematics if this is how I see maths? Why is maths so evil and NOT logical? People say maths can be viewed as a game? A game isn't logical. Can you play a game with analyzing shakespeare? No e_e I like physics but I won't be able to do it at a higher level now, thanks to maths.


Should I try to look into getting a cognitive assessment to see my problem? I love trigonometry though. I can see the numbers and the shape which makes perfect sense =D I hate Algebra e_e God, KILL ALGEBRA WITH FIRE.


Edit:

Can anyone help me with my problem aswell? Or meh.. Please :cry:



Last edited by NateRiver on 14 Apr 2012, 8:27 am, edited 3 times in total.

Cogs
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14 Apr 2012, 5:27 am

I see where you are coming from.

I dislike maths but need it for economics, my poor maths is the barrier to progress in economics, I had not understood any maths above 5th form. To understand what I do now, I needed to create visual and conceptual methods of understanding and doing maths that I could not do by the normal methods. There were times when I literally threw my book across the room due to frustration. I am still stuck on more advanced concepts but will figure out a way to get through them. The extent of the difficulty is completely illogical, the rules and processes make no sense to me, peoples ways of processing it make little sense, my current textbook could be written in ancient greek for all the sense it makes and my teachers and lecturers have generally been unwilling or unable to help me. It is not easy, it is insanely difficult. But it can be done - though if you cant do it then you will need to re-evaluate where you go with physics. As you said, to take physics at a higher level you need to be able to do maths.

Have you considered alternatives - maybe taking english further instead?


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Last edited by Cogs on 14 Apr 2012, 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

bnky
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14 Apr 2012, 5:42 am

You seem to be under the impression that Maths = Logic (?)
Maths involves analysis and interpretation, so just trying to apply rules may not always solve the problem
Not every axiom in Maths is necessarily provable.

NateRiver wrote:
Then someone who is good at maths can say you don't have "common sense."

- how are they showing application of these laws if they call it "common sense"? (Apart from it being highly unlikely that there is indeed a body of knowledge called "common sense" at all.)



bnky
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14 Apr 2012, 5:50 am

School maths is a pretty dumbed down version of higher level maths. They want the largest number of kids to understand things that they have no interest in and will never use again in life.
OP, I get the impression that you're still at school. If you have a university in your town, you might be able to get a university tutor to explain concepts and connections better.



Declension
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14 Apr 2012, 5:59 am

I agree with everything you said, but only if you replace "maths" with "maths as it is often taught at secondary school". Real maths is not like that at all. You start from basic concepts and rigorously build up large beautiful structures, and prove theorems about these structures.

For example, in real maths, you would prove that the distributive law holds for natural numbers, from more fundamental definitions of addition and multiplication. Here is a taste of what that might look like:

If a,b,c are natural numbers, then
a * (b + c)
= (b+c) + (b+c) + ... + (b+c) [repeated a times] (using the definition of multiplication}
= (b + b + ... + b) + (c + c + ... + c) [repeated a times in both cases] (using associativity and commutativity of addition, which we proved earlier)
= (a * b) + (a * c) (using the definition of multiplication)



Last edited by Declension on 14 Apr 2012, 8:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

bnky
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14 Apr 2012, 7:10 am

agreed :D



NateRiver
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14 Apr 2012, 7:28 am

Declension wrote:
I agree with everything you said, but only if you replace "maths" with "maths as it is often taught at secondary school". Real maths is not like that at all. You start from basic concepts and rigorously build up large beautiful structures, and prove theorems about these structures.

For example, in real maths, you would prove that the distributive law holds for natural numbers, from more fundamental definitions of addition and multiplication. Here is a taste of what that might look like:

If a,b,c are natural numbers, then
a * (b + c)
= (b+c) (b+c) * ... * (b+c) [repeated a times] (using the definition of multiplication}
= (b + b + ... + b) + (c + c + ... + c) [repeated a times in both cases] (using associativity of addition, which we proved earlier)
= (a * b) + (a * c) (using the definition of multiplication)



I like that type of maths. Learning the logic behind the numbers is intriguing. I have problems understanding maths questions and I usually get annoyed about it. Any help on how to understand maths questions :L This is a copy and paste about my problems with maths

:X Don't have to read it all though:-

" I definitely don't have dyslexia, but I have autism if that helps;however my problem is that I sometimes mix data up with the wrong variables.I also seem to write down everything subconsciously going on in my brain at the time for e.g. half an hour before I did this particular problem where I was working with quadrilaterals and because quadrilaterals have a sum of 360 degrees; instead of writing 160 corresponding with the problem I was doing at the time, I wrote down 360 instead.

I also mix up variables in data for example:(DONT ANSWER THIS QUESTION)

One day, each driver entering a car park paid exactly £1:50
Here is what was put into the machine that day:
. Number of 1 pound coins: 136
. Number of 50 p coins: 208

What was the percentage of drivers who paid with three 50p coins?
I thought the 1 pound coins were drivers because when you did 208- 136= 72 you got the amount of drivers right? I didn't see the link in dividing it by 3.

I also need pushes in where people are getting at in problem. For example my dad asked me factors of this number and he said there were two more, I didn't know he meant the number itself and 1. There was this mental maths question asking whats the 100th odd number. I thought of it as what is the odd number nearest to 100 so I said 99 then I got confused when someone said it was 199.

I also get fixated on so many variables and work out those variables at a time;however when one variable doesn't correspond with the background logic of the question I become confused and don't see any other solution on how to work out the problem. What's wrong with me? Why do I confuse and manipulate data incorrectly? What can I do to fix it because I would like to be good at maths..

Also, I sometimes mix up sentence structure with others words that are indirectly related. Does anyone know how to to deal with this or cope? I've tried talking to my Special Education teacher or whatever and she is hopeless. I'm currently doing 14 hours a day of studying but I still fail... any help? Please... I'm desperate."

Mental maths infuriates me.



NateRiver
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14 Apr 2012, 7:31 am

bnky wrote:
School maths is a pretty dumbed down version of higher level maths. They want the largest number of kids to understand things that they have no interest in and will never use again in life.
OP, I get the impression that you're still at school. If you have a university in your town, you might be able to get a university tutor to explain concepts and connections better.



Maybe, I had a tutor once. But he was a pedophile so.. I'll try and look into getting a good tutor and see what goes from there. Thanks you guys C: All of you are so very helpful! My responses from Y/A are ridiculous. Then again it's Y/A , have you seen their questions?



NateRiver
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14 Apr 2012, 7:34 am

Cogs wrote:
I see where you are coming from.

I dislike maths but need it for economics, my poor maths is the barrier to progress in economics, I had not understood any maths above 5th form. To understand what I do now, I needed to create visual and conceptual methods of understanding and doing maths that I could not do by the normal methods. There were times when I literally threw my book across the room due to frustration. I am still stuck on more advanced concepts but will figure out a way to get through them. The extent of the difficulty is completely illogical, the rules and processes make no sense to me, peoples ways of processing it make little sense, my current textbook could be written in ancient greek for all the sense it makes and my teachers and lecturers have generally been unwilling or unable to help me. It is not easy, it is insanely difficult. But it can be done - though if you cant do it then you will need to re-evaluate where you go with physics. As you said, to take physics at a higher level you need to be able to do maths.

Have you considered alternatives - maybe taking english further instead?



Same! That usually happens to me when someone explains maths to me. Personally, I need logic, reasons and whys on how to do things. I mix up variables and mix up the meaning of questions too sometimes. Taking English further? Well, I can't really because my grammar is terrible and my writing skills are horrible;however give me a text to analyse and BAM I'm a boss. The only reason why I'm in set 1 English at my school is because of my analytical skills. Any other skills in English I'm mediocre.



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14 Apr 2012, 7:39 am

Declension wrote:
I agree with everything you said, but only if you replace "maths" with "maths as it is often taught at secondary school". Real maths is not like that at all. You start from basic concepts and rigorously build up large beautiful structures, and prove theorems about these structures.

For example, in real maths, you would prove that the distributive law holds for natural numbers, from more fundamental definitions of addition and multiplication. Here is a taste of what that might look like:

If a,b,c are natural numbers, then
a * (b + c)
= (b+c) (b+c) * ... * (b+c) [repeated a times] (using the definition of multiplication}
= (b + b + ... + b) + (c + c + ... + c) [repeated a times in both cases] (using associativity of addition, which we proved earlier)
= (a * b) + (a * c) (using the definition of multiplication)


^^ Wooowwww thank you very much for the lovely proof Declension as I do not believe that I have discovered such a proof of distributivity within the set of natural numbers within the past.


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Wandering_Stranger
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14 Apr 2012, 7:45 am

Because it's far more interesting than English.



Declension
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14 Apr 2012, 7:49 am

Tomasu wrote:
Wooowwww thank you very much for the lovely proof Declension as I do not believe that I have discovered such a proof of distributivity within the set of natural numbers within the past.


There's books and books and books of this stuff. Full of careful proofs, clever definitions and enlightening theorems. A good place to start is to look at maths articles on Wikipedia to get an idea of the scope of modern mathematics.

Seriously, to anyone reading this, even if you think you hate maths, try getting out an entry-level textbook on group theory or set theory or (my favourite) topology. It might take you a long time to work through it, but there is nothing more satisfying in the world. It sure beats fiction.

EDIT: My proof was slightly wrong, hahaha. I fixed it up a bit. Hopefully you got the idea, though.



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14 Apr 2012, 8:27 am

NateRiver wrote:
bnky wrote:
School maths is a pretty dumbed down version of higher level maths. They want the largest number of kids to understand things that they have no interest in and will never use again in life.
OP, I get the impression that you're still at school. If you have a university in your town, you might be able to get a university tutor to explain concepts and connections better.



Maybe, I had a tutor once. But he was a pedophile so.. I'll try and look into getting a good tutor and see what goes from there. Thanks you guys C: All of you are so very helpful! My responses from Y/A are ridiculous. Then again it's Y/A , have you seen their questions?


Are you in the UK? Many University maths staff would be very happy to answer the questions you have posted.
Just email the department, and ask for a contact that would be willing to answer questions about the nature of maths education in schools. Challenge them.

The writer, broadcaster, mathematician Simon Singh (an Aspie) http://simonsingh.net/contact/
supports projects that aims to inspire schoolchildren to like maths. Ask him for more info. You might be able to find a really good tutor through asking him and I know a lot of the projects are free.



NateRiver
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14 Apr 2012, 8:31 am

Declension wrote:
Tomasu wrote:
Wooowwww thank you very much for the lovely proof Declension as I do not believe that I have discovered such a proof of distributivity within the set of natural numbers within the past.


There's books and books and books of this stuff. Full of careful proofs, clever definitions and enlightening theorems. A good place to start is to look at maths articles on Wikipedia to get an idea of the scope of modern mathematics.

Seriously, to anyone reading this, even if you think you hate maths, try getting out an entry-level textbook on group theory or set theory or (my favourite) topology. It might take you a long time to work through it, but there is nothing more satisfying in the world. It sure beats fiction.

EDIT: My proof was slightly wrong, hahaha. I fixed it up a bit. Hopefully you got the idea, though.


What do you mean by ... How many as?



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14 Apr 2012, 10:55 am

I'm very poor at maths but I don't hate it. Actually, I do get bored when someone's sitting there trying to work something out that has anything to do with maths, because I know I can't help them. I've found I'm more better at helping someone out with dealing with a social problem than a maths problem!

Once I saw a really difficult sum written on a bit of paper and my mind shut down before I could even stop it, so I couldn't even try to work it out.


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